ChicagoRacers Debate-'08

[Martin Lenick]

ChicagoRacers Debate-'08
Okay, the war on terror, mission accomplished, water-boarding, stem-cell research, abortion, illegal aliens, taxes, global warming, pork, line-item veto's, history revisionists, legislative judiciaries, the separation of church and state... et al

Post your positions/arguments and I'll open appropriately delineated threads.

To prime the pump:
War on Terror: sorry, what's wrong with profiling?

Mission accomplished: that mission was to crush the enemy's military - done.

Water-boarding: The most humane torture... let's bring Jack Bower into this debate.

Stem-cell Research: This is the biggest canard - research all you want, nobody is stopping you - I just don't want it to be federally funded.

Abortion: People have been charged, convicted and executed for the death of a pregnant-woman's unborn baby. If I kill an unborn baby in some incident where the mother was on her way to the clinic for an abortion...

Illegal Aliens and the rest of my list - more to come.

[CIR-Reed]

pork??????

[Rick]

You forgot:

Speed Limit
CCW Permits
Taxation (IRS)
Health Care
General Foreign Policy

[Rick]

Mission accomplished: that mission was to crush the enemy's military - done.

Depends on which mission you're talking about. If the mission was to "shock and awe" Iraq and destroy it's government, then yes the mission was accomplished a long time ago.

However, I do recall the president stating that all terrorists are the enemy:

"And we will pursue nations that provide aid or safe haven to terrorism. Every nation in every region now has a decision to make: Either you are with us or you are with the terrorists.

From this day forward, any nation that continues to harbor or support terrorism will be regarded by the United States as a hostile regime."

The president also initiated a world wide preemptive war against terrorism.

According to the U.S. Department of State, a terrorist is a group that practices terrorism and who's actions "threaten the security of U.S. nationals or the national security (national defense, foreign relations, or the economic interests) of the United States."

That means we still need to invade Ireland and take care of the Real IRA and the Continuity Irish Republican Army and all of the other organizations on this list (including #33 which is in progress):

Current List of Designated Foreign Terrorist Organizations <---- click here to see entire list. (http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/fs/37191.htm)

[Rick]

What's the profile? :)

[pmpnuss]

You forgot to post the number one terrorist. Or maybe its is the United states
We put our noses in everybody elses business and then get mad when they yurn the tables. The economy is in a recesion but we can spend billions in iraq. I say we should cut the governments pay use that to pay for the war i think they make enough

[Rick]

I guess we have to wait for Martin to drink a lot of scotch before he replies.

[Martin Lenick]

At my most inebriated, I do better with spelling, syntax, punctuation, grammer and, above all, cogent argument. I'd sooner reply to a Bazooka comic.

Adam, however, posted a good argument in a different thread to which I've not yet been sober enough to reply. It might be awhile.

[Rick]

I'd sooner reply to a Bazooka comic.

Bazooka comic? Ouch.

[Martin Lenick]

Rick, you should know better than to expect me to reply to someone who lacks the courage to stand behind his convictions with his name.

Furthermore, you set this off on a bad start by intentionally altering information that you could have used to bolster you arguement. If you believe that the United States of America is the #1 terrorist then just say so; present the State Department's list in its published order and say why you believe it should all be shifted down a notch, and we the people put on top.

Please, tell us why you would have us infer (and avoided explicit implication) that we are the #1 terrorist. Do you believe that we are the worst society on this planet? Where do you think we rank among those that contribute most to humanity?

[Rick]

Furthermore, you set this off on a bad start by intentionally altering information that you could have used to bolster you arguement.

I copied and pasted the list verbatim from this url:

http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/fs/37191.htm

It appears that the list is in alphabetical order.

If you believe that the United States of America is the #1 terrorist then just say so; present the State Department's list in its published order and say why you believe it should all be shifted down a notch, and we the people put on top.I don't think that the US are the #1 terrorists. I never said that. I just think that "the mission" is impossible to accomplish.

[Martin Lenick]

Your list has everything shifted down one position, leaving the number-one slot blank. The first reply to your post (albeit from someone who prefers to remain annonymous) took the bait and put us in that #1 position. Your subsequent reply didn't challenge his implication of we being the #1 terrorist - in tacit agreement it challenged me to respond.

[Rick]

Hmm the list appears correct when I look at it. :confused: I didn't intentionally remove anyone from the list. I removed the list and just left the link so there are no misunderstandings. Sorry! I guess I should be more careful... I wouldn't want to accidentally start a war.

My position on "mission accomplished" is:

a. The original mission of killing the people responsible for 9/11 has morphed into a preemptive war against "all terrorists" and any nations that harbor them.
b. The "War against terrorism" is going to be extremely costly, time consuming and most likely will produce more anti-US groups.

It is my strong opinion that objective b cannot be achieved successfully while retaining the ideals that this nation was founded on. We would have to proactively and preemptively hunt down and kill every single person who dislikes our country in order to be truly successful. That would take forever. I also don't think that US citizens are morally prepared to do what it takes to accomplish that.

[Martin Lenick]

Hmm the list appears correct when I look at it. :confused: I didn't intentionally remove anyone from the list. I removed the list and just left the link so there are no misunderstandings. Sorry! I guess I should be more careful... I wouldn't want to accidentally start a war.

My position on "mission accomplished" is:

a. The original mission of killing the people responsible for 9/11 has morphed into a preemptive war against "all terrorists" and any nations that harbor them.
b. The "War against terrorism" is going to be extremely costly, time consuming and most likely will produce more anti-US groups.

It is my strong opinion that objective b cannot be achieved successfully while retaining the ideals that this nation was founded on. We would have to proactively and preemptively hunt down and kill every single person who dislikes our country in order to be truly successful. That would take forever. I also don't think that US citizens are morally prepared to do what it takes to accomplish that.
Hmmm, you shouldn't have removed the list. The #1 slot WAS blank.
Okay, let's ignore that and consider this a fresh start. Well, we're off to a bad start if this is to be a debate and not one of a zillion internet rant sites. "The original mission of killing the people responsible for 9/11..." was not the mission, had nothing to do with the context of the mission or the accomplished end of it, and in the spirit of debate, as your first premise, its falsehood precludes rebuttal. However, I'll give it a try:

That "infamous" sign, "Mission Accomplished" was a banner on a specific fighting ship proclaiming the success and pride of the troops on it and their brothers still at sea - the conquest of an enemy military. What remained, ununiformed terrorists, was not their mission. Their mission, that mission, was accomplished.

In a war against annonymous, ununiformed "people" that blow up buses, trains, planes, schools, embassies, churches, mosques, temples, markets and a theater near you, I don't really care how much it costs, how long it takes, or how many people it pisses off. In fact, I want to know exacty just whom it pisses off. I'll bet we're sending them foreign aid or gave thousands of our own lives in their hour of need.