Maddie the Menace

[Adam Andrea]

First qualifier: She attempted to spin me out from behind right before the start/finish. There was ample room on both sides, and I'm pretty sure her kart had a brake pedal. I was in traffic, but this didn't stop her from bumping me (my honest estimate is 20-30 times per lap).

Second qualifier: She attempts to go 3-wide with 2 other karts into the Red Bull. 5-6 kart accident ensues. She also finds her brake pedal: Martin.

Third qualifier: Didn't see her

Final: She got stuck on the outside of a train coming into the hairpin. Instead of sucking it up and taking the outside line, she turned her wheel full to the left, driving into the kart next to her. The person directly in front of me (I'll let him speak for himself if he wants to) took about five laps to get by her thanks to her ridiculous blocking lines. It took me about 10 laps to get by. I backed way off coming into the red bull, anticipating her block, and she took such a narrow line that I was by her at the start/finish (not without her turning into me of course). After getting rear ended coming into the hairpin (of course), I checked out.

I really don't think I'm being unfair here. These were all blatantly intentional incidents that I witnessed first hand. People were obviously reluctant to say anything to her (I wonder why...?). The track staff was clearly afraid to give her a warning/penalty. Maybe that's the reason she drives the way she does.

Feel free to add your two cents. I won't blame you if you choose not to.

[Mark Hirt]

In the Final, after the hairpin mess I passed her going onto track two then got pushed through the chicane, somehow pulled away on the T2 stright then for some reason my kart developed a wicked understeer exiting the Mechanics bay (hummmm) I avoid the crash into the wall and got passed. On the next lap (still pissed off) I just stuffed it in entering the Red Bull and drove away.

[peterjank]

Hi Adam,

Maddie has gotten much more aggressive lately.

She pushed me out of the way fairly effectively going into the hairpin at the start of the ironman event in August.

I was also at the front end of the mess in the second qualifier and didn't like it very much.

I mentioned the incident at the start of the second qualifier to Jim Hanes in the break between the third qualifier and the main event.

If it continues, I will speak with Maddie about it.

If it continues after that, I'll get a little more creative. Strategic brake checks often prove effective in getting the message across that I don't like being hit on entry to a turn, practicularly when I have considerably more mass than the person behind me.

[Martin Lenick]

Maddie "bumped" me often... that I can usually handle.
But she also pulls off an amazing "push", which of course
translates to my kart developing a push so severe that
it will not turn. She did that several times, finally getting
by me in the clockwise transition from T2 to T1. It was
unnecessary, because she had the kart and the talent
to get by me cleanly.

What really gets me is I WAS PASSED BY A GIRL!! :lol:

I do, however, still welcome the opportunity to race
with her. She's very good, and getting better. There
are things I can learn from her, and things like this
she can learn from us.

[peterjank]

Well put Martin.

Thanks again for providing the trophies for last night's event.

[CIR - Tony Stewart]

Adam

I am sorry that you felt that you could not talk to me about this subject, as anyone will tell you that has witnessed Junior Leagues, Maddie get's her fair share of penalties (as do any of my other children that race). I am honest enough to know that none of my children are perfect and that in all aspects of their lives they are learning, pushing boundaries and as would be expected making mistakes.

I genuinely did not see her push you in the first race (that is not to say that she didn't). I did see her make an attempt and then back off as you took your line.

The second race I was busy trying to sort out a timing problem that resulted in the red flag and subsequent restart having attempted to put people back into the right spots.

The third race I watched from start to finish and was uneventful from what I could see as she chased Martin and Peter to the flag.

During one of the races I saw Mark Hirt gesture having been passed by Maddie and Martin and made a point of asking him whether or not Maddie had done anything untoward - he told me that another driver had moved him out of the way and that Maddie had taken advantage of the gap - I did not pursue the matter further.

The Final was a mess - I thought Maddie drove over defensively/poorly trying to protect her position and compensate for a poor handling kart (yes we do have some :( - this kart was brought over from T2 after losing two karts in the heats and wasn't part of the original grid and she got it for the final). I spoke to her about this race afterwards.

There is, and will be, no favoritism and if there are any concerns I would encourage anyone to approach me directly to discuss the matter and I will deal with it personally.

If there is any driver on this forum that would not like Maddie to race with them I will ensure that she does not take part in any competition in which you are taking part - just let me know ahead of time so that I can make arrangements. In the meantime I will pass on your observations to Maddie and will be casting a critical eye on her driving at future events.

Hope to see you soon Adam - there are no hard feelings.

Regards



Tony Stewart

[Adam Andrea]

Thank you, Tony. I appreciate your fairness and objectivity on the matter. I'll have no problem racing with Maddie if the bumping/pushing is toned down... she is definitely talented enough to do well in these events without it.

EDIT - By the way, I don't know if he reads these forums or not, but congratulations to Stefan on the win in the final race AND the fastest lap of the night.

[CIR - Tony Stewart]

Thanks for the reply Adam - see you soon - are you up for the Iron Man?

Tony

[Adam Andrea]

Originally posted by CIR - Tony Stewart@Aug 10 2005, 07:45 PM
Thanks for the reply Adam - see you soon - are you up for the Iron Man?

Tony
1212

Reed gave me a call today about it. I have a friend visiting this weekend and I'm not sure what time they are planning on leaving, so I may not be able to make it.

[Roger]

okay.. I'll be the "punk" and say it: "YOU ALL GOT BEAT BY A GIRL!!!!" LOL and on top of it.. she pushed you guys around... I hope i'm this lucky when I have a daugther LOL... I'm just joking :beer:

Personally I think it's cool that some of the kids are participating on Peter's Event. First time I ran with Stefan, I enjoyed watching the back of his kart :-D. I haven't raced with maddy yet so I can't comment on it.

Congratulations to stefan and sorry I missed this month Peter

[MPIGP - Phillip Gordon]

I'm with Roger on this one. Sounds like Maddie kicked some a** :action-smiley-073:

Adam, would you like some cheese to go along with that w*ine? :nopity: Welcome to the world of indoor karting man. If you were getting bumped 20 to 30 times in one lap, it means you were holding her up. Hell I would've punted you out the waY too after the 3rd bump :36_5_11:

But seriously, if she was able to push you heavy guys around, that takes some real talent....and holding you off in the final with a bad kart, c'mon now, give her credit....that takes some talent.

Racing people like Maddie, trust me, will only make you a better racer. Hopefully when you cool off Adam you'll laugh at this :beer:

[peterjank]

Hi Phil,

While agree that Maddie is very talented, I disagree with your point that it takes talent to push other people out of the way.

What takes talent (and patience) is to follow someone closely without touching them and then be in the right position to take advantage of their un-aided mistake.

Kudos to Adam, Mark, Martin and Tony for standing up for that type of racing.

[MPIGP - Phillip Gordon]

PJ

We are talking apples and oranges here. I agree wholeheartedly with what you're saying....in the REAL WORLD OF RACING. Indoor karting however, is a whole different story. You're not working with a 25' wide track with run off. Contact is inevitable. All I'm saying is, if Maddie was able to man-handle you guys, maybe you need to step it up a notch :4: Hate the game NOT the player.

PG

[Adam Andrea]

I was holding her up because there was a slower kart in front of me. Should I have pushed him out of the way to pass him? I could have, but I would be risking a penalty, and there's not really any skill in that anyway. If everyone were going to drive like that, its wouldnt really be racing.

If you gave me a kart that I could only turn 32 second laps in, and you were in one that you could do 30s in, I could still prevent you from getting away by divebombing/bumping into corners, throwing you off the line, and then passing you. Then I could block you, and you could attempt to do the same to me. It's not racing, whether you're in a go kart or a real race car.

You'll also notice the lack of "whining" in the main post. All I did was point out what took place.

[MPIGP - Phillip Gordon]

Adam

Keep your shorts on man....I thought this was supposed to be a light hearted discussion. I said it before and I'll say it again.....indoor karting is a whole different animal. There are techniques used indoors that you could never attempt with 'real' race karts unless you wanted to end up on your head. I'm not saying that Maddie was right in what she did, but there are two things that are obvious. 1) she's fast...or at least fast enough to bump you. 2) she understands the dynamics of the kart and was able to use it to her advantage. That's why I said she's got talent. I've worked with kids in driver development programs and it is much easier to tone down an aggressive kid than it is to get a passive kid to take chances.

As for you being in a kart 2 seconds slower and dive bombing me to pass then holding me up.....uhhh....I don't think so. If you want a chance to prove you could though, maybe you should sign up for the USAIR event and we can settle it on the track :diablotin:

PG

[Adam Andrea]

PG, I'll let you take your pick. If it's a "light-hearted" discussion, stop calling me a whiner and telling me to "keep my shorts on", because I've been discussing this calmly and rationally the whole time. Otherwise you can continue turning this into a flame-war.

"I'm not saying that Maddie was right in what she did..."
...Then what are we really arguing about here?

I don't think it takes any skill whatsoever to block someone on a narrow go kart track with relatively slow karts. Nor do I think it takes skill to push someone out of your way in order to pass them. I think in most racers' opinions, its a display of skill to win a race WITHOUT resorting to these tactics. Regardless, what she was doing was against the rules in the video that we're forced to watch almost every time we run an event. The rules are there to protect sportsmanship. Breaking them while others do not just results in an unfair advantage. Not to mention that Peter's events are supposed to be friendly events, not some championship for prestige and a paycheck.

Frankly, I don't really mind a bit of bumping in a race. Among the things I DO mind are: Attempting to spin people out on a straight, repeatedly pushing them through turn-ins, running people into walls, and attempting maneuvers that will almost certainly end in a massive pile-up. If I've got a clear track ahead of me and I'm getting bumped in places other than braking zones, I realize holding someone up, and I'll move over. When I'm stuck behind another kart, it's a different story.

Since you don't seem to believe my example from the last post, here's a hypothetical: You begin ahead of me, and exit a corner faster than I do, pulling away from me. You then begin braking for the next corner, making a PERFECT entry. I, however, choose not to brake. Unless you're A LOT faster than me, I can hit you before you make it through the corner. This will likely result in you being pushed wide of the apex, or spinning you out entirely. As a result, I may or may not pass you, but I'm definitely keeping you from pulling away. I see this happen with overaggressive drivers in arrive & drives all the time. I'm sure every CIR regular has had a moment where they blew by a slow newbie on the track1 straight and, braking into the hairpin, winced at the inevitable rear-ending that was about to occur. This is a pretty clear-cut example of how a slower driver can keep up with a faster one, or even get past him.

[peterjank]

Well put Adam. There is a big difference between occassional side-pod to side-pod contact, which is perfectly acceptable aggressive driving, and being nerfed from behind because someone is unwilling or unable to use the brake.

[Roger]

Adam.

Having raced with Maddie on the Ironman race this past Sunday, I really didn't see any aggression on her part. Me and peter ran together back to back through most of the 100 laps (He offcourse was in front of me). I clearly remember passing maddie twice and not once having her give me or peter a hard time. I'll also add that both times I passed her, it wasn't as if she me and peter blew by her. As soon as she waved us by, she got right behind me and not once bumped.

This is not to say that she's not an aggressive driver. It just means that I had a chance to race with her and didn't see any "over aggression".

I've been known to be an aggressive driver to a certain point. My rule of thumb has always been "If I have the inside regardless if it's in a corner or a straightway, and the only way to avoid a crash or contact is for one of us to stand down..you can bet it wont be me". This offcourse has caused 1 or 2 pretty bad accidents :AR15firing:. So I was given the "ROGER IS AGGRESSIVE" :action-smiley-073: I usually only bump once or twice to let you know i'm behind you. (if i can catch you ) Now if a better driver points out to me that I should tone it down, it's very easy for me to do so. But if you ask a "passive" driver, who always lets others pass them whenver they get a little bump to tone it UP and get more aggressive, chances are it will be a lot harder. It will require lots of practice and skills.

I think this is what Phil is trying to say. That although she might have been extra rough on peter's event, it's good she's not afraid to be aggressive (especially against grown men like us) because if anyone asks her to tone it down... she can easily do it (like she did on the IRONMAN)

I'm just giving my 2cents and not defending her or agreeing with anyone. Everyone's opinion is always going to be a little bias based on their experience and background.

To me... being REALLY REALLY FAST is only half the ingredient on being a good racer. I can point out at LEAST 4 or 5 "FAST" regulars of CIR who will smoke me by 3 or 4 tenths on a arrive drive. You put them on an enduro or sprint league where position is the name of the game, and they struggle to get 3rd place (if that). Why is that? Well that’s because they are very used to being passive and running by themselves.

Take David Mickelson. I think Martin, Erjohn and maybe Greg can agree with me on this. When david first came around and started pulling fast laps. He would do great at qualify but end up in 2nd or 3rd on final events. He was very passive. Last sprint league, he started becoming more agressive and now almost every event he enters, he places 1st. A certain amount of aggression sometimes is what is needed to move on to the next level in one's experience and abilities. I may be wrong :dunno: ????

You are right by ALL means that trying to intentionally take someone out because of anger or frustration should result in a PENALTY or WARNING. If the staff doesn’t see it.. Do what I do… complain to the managers. Jim and Reed already know to hide from me after a enduro or league night. Because I'll let them know of a few penalties they should have given.

This is why I think Chicagoracers.com is such a cool site for us… because we can come here and rant (with respect to others). And I’m glad a few of CIR employees do read our comments & complaints and respond to them.

My 2 ½ cents ---- Rog

p.s: EVERYTHING I JUST SAID ABOUT HOW I DRIVE ONLY APPLIES TO REGULARS. ANY NEW DRIVERS AT CIR I EAT THEM FOR BREAKFAST AND PLAY PING PONG WITH THEIR KARTS :devil: :devil: :diablotin: :diablotin:

But yeah back to the maddie issue... i didn't see anything wrong with ther drivnig :dunno:

[Rick]

If I'm side by side with another cart and reach over and shut off the other kart's engine, would that be considered too aggressive? :(

[Adam Andrea]

Originally posted by rick@Aug 16 2005, 02:48 AM
If I'm side by side with another cart and reach over and shut off the other kart's engine, would that be considered too aggressive?* :(
1234

Well, I haven't seen that happen yet, but I have seen someone reach over to punch someone in the back during a pile-up.

[Rick]

Originally posted by Adam Andrea@Aug 16 2005, 10:55 AM
Well, I haven't seen that happen yet, but I have seen someone reach over to punch someone in the back during a pile-up.
1237


That's pretty aggressive.

[MPIGP - Phillip Gordon]

[To me... being REALLY REALLY FAST is only half the ingredient on being a good racer. I can point out at LEAST 4 or 5 "FAST" regulars of CIR who will smoke me by 3 or 4 tenths on a arrive drive. You put them on an enduro or sprint league where position is the name of the game, and they struggle to get 3rd place (if that). Why is that? Well that’s because they are very used to being passive and running by themselves.]

Case in point....Danica Patrick

[Rick]

I think that there is a fine line between "dirty" racing and clean racing. Alot of this depends on a combination of the type of vehicle, track and speeds of a particular race. It also depends alot on what is considered acceptable by the other participants and track personnel. In motorcycle racing, contact is very dangerous and could have bad consequences for both the person who initiated the contact and the one who received it. In NASCAR, contact is obviously acceptable. In Formula1, it is not.

When I first started out racing karts, I was black flagged frequently for contact -_- . I wasn't as fast as other guys, but I would dive bomb other karts and gain position. Once I started to get more serious about racing, I found that this was looked down apon by a majority of the other racers. I switched my style to be clean and avoided any contact at all. In my opinion, I feel that it takes more effort and patience to follow someone and pass them without any contact at all. It requires driving a good line, reading the oponent's line and watching for his/her mistakes. It also requires alot more timing and planning. You might have to set the oponent up 2 or 3 corners ahead of time before you actually make a successful pass. To intentionally push someone from behind to make them go offline, takes alot less effort and therefore less skill (in my opinion). I could use the kart in front of me as a brake and keep them offline and pass them in one lap, maybe one turn. It's also alot easier for me to punt someone than to pass cleanly.

When I lived in the Bay Area, I had the opportunity to race karts with Robert Orcutt, a professional driver who has driven in the LeMans Rolex Series and many other "real" racing series. He would always push from behind to gain position. I confronted him about this and he told me that "real" racers bump all the time. After watching Speed Vision World Challenge, I believe that this is true (atleast for that series). He also said that the trick is to gently nudge the kart/car infront (NASCAR anyone?). Just enough to cause the driver to go offline. If you're driving at the limit, a little nudge is all it takes. Whether or not it is sportsmanlike, skillful or fair, I believe that many drivers use this technique. I choose not to use it intentionally or unintentionally. If I accidentally make contact and gain position, I will give it back. But then again, my career doesn't depend on it. :D

At the last A&D at Norway, I set pole. Unfortunately, they chose to start the initial round with the grid in reverse order (slowest first). As I made my way up the field, I watched as some drivers began to nudge and bump other carts to make them go offline. Eventually, I also got punted off into the weeds (while I was in 2nd position) in turn 1 by another driver who was atleast 2 seconds of my pace. I finished last that round. I was pissed. I planned to get him back during the next round. I was going to punt him in turn 6? (The hairpin after the banked sweeper). As the race progressed, he knew I was behind him. I would let him know by attempting to pass on the inside and show him my kart. I had to be careful not to place my kart in a position where he could use contact again. As I toyed with him, he began driving a more defensive line. I decided that passing him cleanly would only be more insulting to him.

In all forms of sport there are those who bend or break the rules of conduct. I think that contact in racing happens. I think that intentional contact is unsportsman-like and dirty. Being a clean driver takes much more effort, skill and restraint. The officials can only see a limited amount. When a little nudge is all it takes, it is hard to spot a driver who uses this technique. Ultimately it's up to each participant to govern their own actions. Maybe if Maddie knew that other drivers looked down on using these techniques, she would aspire to be a better driver. That's what it took for me.

:blah: :blah: :blah:
Sorry for the long post, that was my $2.50