bum kart?

[MPIGP - Phillip Gordon]

Mark

Sorry for hijacking your post but since Greg and Scott brought it up I thought I would ask. What's up with the karts at CIR? I watched the juniors race tonight and the MB team finished second because they had a bum kart for the first half of the race. I'm thinking of racing with the WCBMW club in March but now I'm having second thoughts. What gives?

Martin....it was nice meeting you in person tonight...congratulations on your TAG kart purchase....I hope to see you at Norway sometime.

PG

[Scott Schalund]

Phil,
Yes there are some differences in the karts at CIR. I did get stuck with a kart (#35) that ran very flat for the final in the MRO :bawling: . I think Paul russo and Will Johnston had it once also. NOt sure why but from almost half throttle to full throttle not much of an rpm change. Since it was already in the rotation it stayed.

There are other differences in the karts, mainly because of some of the abuse they take from the arrive & drives and events with newbies, and also from those that like to drive into things....results are karts that handle different, steer different , brake different and so on. :blah:

It has been CIRs policy for league stuff that if the kart is in the rotation it will stay in the rotation unless it breaks. So it is luck of the draw.
I can say that i do not get bad karts all that often. I also know that they are getting the new karts rotated in the field.

Scott

[MPIGP - Phillip Gordon]

Scott

I know this problem has always been there.... just wondering if was getting worse. I was there for another junior race prior to this one and in the 100 lapper iron man that followed, one driver changed karts 3 times before he got a competitive kart. I know the Windy City event will just be for fun but bragging rights are at stake.

Phil

[Greg Shebert]

Hi Phil

I didn't hear anything about the WindyCity event. I'm still a member but haven't seen any mention of it. I suppose I could have overlooked it in the Breeze or something.

When is it and is the list full?

I might be interested

-Greg-

[CIR - Tony Stewart]

Phil

As anyone who reads this will know, I rarely get involved in these online discussions. However, your comments took me totally by surprise as you were present when I approached the MB Team after practice and let them know that there was a problem with the choke on their kart and that we had affected a temporary repair. They were then provided the opportunity to test the kart or take the spare. They tested the kart and elected to run with it - after the first ten laps or so, they appeared to fall off the pace again and we approached them to offer them the spare - without being asked. They took it and then mounted a great comeback drive that made for an exciting end to the race.

Of all people, you should understand the challenges involved and the lengths that we go to in order to provide a level playing field at a cost that most can afford. I understand that a number of our customers are looking to race outdoors and therefore I have no issue with you attending CIR and explaining your product offering to them, but please have the courtesy not to take cheap shots at our expense. If you can find an organization that can provide a similar number of equally matched karts week in, week out with the support and facilities that are available at CIR for a similar price I'd love to hear about it.

With regards to the diver that changed kart three times, it should be noted that each time he went slower and was in fact in the best kart in the first place but got it into his head that there was a problem and couldn't drive around the mental problem he created. I think you'll find that if you ask the driver in question he'll admit as much.

Ironically, one of the most successful drivers at CIR, Dave Mickelson, has never really complained about a kart - he just gets in and drives and appears to be quick in almost anything.

If there are a large number of drivers that want to spend thousands of $'s on equipment, maintain their own equipment and pay for every piece of accident damage regardless of fault they should let me know and I will revise the enthusiast/league model and provide a totally different level of equipment and service at a totally different price.

Regards




Tony Stewart

[Scott Schalund]

Phil
I failed to mention in my post that it was my CHOICE to park the kart(#35) I had in the final. CIR crew did ask if I wanted to jump in another kart and finish the final. I declined. My CHOICE. it was the final for the evening and knew I was not in the running so I parked it. ( besdies for me overall I do this for the fun of it and to beat AJ once in awhile)

I did run a couple of A&Ds right after that with other karts without a problem.

Scott

[MPIGP - Phillip Gordon]

Tony

Thanks for taking the time to make a personal response.

First of all my post was not meant as a cheap shot at your expense and if you are going to relate the story please do so accurately for the benefit of those that were not there.

In qualifying it took only 3 or four laps for Tim Megenbier Sr, Matt's Mom and myself to realize there was a problem with the kart not only with the motor but the handling. Matt was almost 1 1/2 secs off the pace. Timmy got in the kart and try as he may he was only able to get within 1 sec of the pole sitter. While Timmy was on the track Tim Sr was getting pretty frustrated with the situation and said he was done with this BS and this would be his last race at CIR. I suggested he ask for a different kart. When Timmy came off the track he told his Dad that the kart was not handling and was low on power. His Dad sent him up to the tower to speak with you. It was only after the conversation with Timmy that you came over and told them that you found a problem with the choke, you were going to apply a temporary fix and have Matt try it for a few laps before the start of the race. When Matt took the kart around for a few laps he lined up for the race. My understanding after talking with Matt is that he was told that his times were quicker that's why he started in that kart. He ran his first stint and was only marginally faster than his qualifying times. When Timmy got in the kart he drove his azz off and although he got quicker, he was still consistently 1/2 second slower than the leader. At that point you came over and told Matt you were going to send him out in the back up kart for his second stint. It only took Matt 4 or 5 laps to get up to speed and started clicking off laps as quick as the leader. When Timmy got in the kart he was on pace with the leader almost immediately. Within 7 or 8 laps he was turning quicker lap times than the leader. Had they started in the backup kart I believe it would have been a different race. I honestly feel they lost that race because of the bum kart they started in.

I totally understand the challenges of trying to provide a level playing field and know so first hand. I have run an indoor karting facility in the past. I spent countless hours tuning and testing karts prior to our league nights to provide just that but even then, there was always one or two 'fast' karts. Knowing this, I would provide an extra kart in the pits for driver changes so the karts would be rotated through the field. This way one team was not stuck with a bum kart and another team didn't get the exclusive to the fast kart.

As far as attending CIR to explain my product offering, please allow me to set the record straight. I was invited by Tim Megenbier to watch Timmy race and have been talking with some of the junior drivers that you asked me to give some seat time in the RM1 as preparation for their Red Bull run off. I have not been marketing my product to them and as a matter of fact they don't even qualify for it. My Masters Pro Series is for 30 and older and the young masters class is only for kids of members.

With regards to the driver that changed karts 3 times, I can accept the mental thing, we've all been there. The thing that got me though, without mentioning names, I'll just say a regular, who was observing that race predicted the driver would pull in again after the first kart change saying that kart was slower than the one he came out of. When he went out in the 3 kart, the regular said he would be pulling in again because that kart is worse than the one he got out of, and sure enough he pulled in again. Maybe your regulars can help you identify the problem karts that need special attention. At the indoor facility that I operated, Gold cards were issued to our regulars that ran the leagues. They paid an annual fee for the card and had unlimited A&D during off peak hours. These guys were invaluable. They could identify problems with the karts and point them out to the mechanics. Something you may consider for the future.

I have told you on many occasions that I think you run a first class operation and that comes from the heart. I am sorry you mistook my post as a 'cheap shot' at your facility. If you would rather I not speak with your customers when I come to watch Timmy race I will respect your wishes. If you would rather I not visit your facility at all that would not be a problem either. Just let me know.

[D. Harrington]

Phil,
I was at the Junior Enduro this past weekend watching my son Brennan race in the event with his buddy Andy(AB Attack). They were in 2nd place for about two thirds of the race until Timmy & Matt starting racing in the 31 kart (and the boys had a couple of minor issues on the track). Obviously, the lap times for your team dropped significantly once they switched to the 31 kart, with Timmy turning some of the best laps I have seen on Track 3 in reverse(30.04). But, I have to disagree with your contention that the karts at CIR are not being maintained properly and are not capable of running similar lap times. I have run the majority of the enduros, leagues, and run offs at CIR and have had karts that definitely did not suit me, but often others have driven the same karts after I have gotten out and ran competitve lap times. The karts are tested and run very similar lap times with the same driver prior to the event. I don't know what else CIR could have done to help out on Sunday. They offered to let the boys switch the kart after the problem was brought to their attention, and they eventually did decide to switch. Timmy & Matt did a great job of fighting back and grabbing 2nd place. They may have won the race if they had the 31 kart(which was obviously running strong) for the entire race, but we will never know(hopefully the boys can run again next month to give it another shot). I think we all agree that Tony runs a first class facility where we all greatly enjoy racing and spending time with people that have similar interests. I look forward to seeing you at CIR in the future!

Dave Harrington

[MPIGP - Phillip Gordon]

Dave

Thanks for the response. That's the kind of information I was looking for. I was not implying that the karts were not being maintained properly. From experience I know the abuse these karts get from the general public and there comes a point when they are just not tunable anymore and need to be replaced. I was trying to find out if that time had come. I know all the karts will be somewhat different and part of the fun is trying to figure out how to make each particular kart work, but some problems you just can't overcome and those karts should not be allowed in a competitive event. Those should either be retired or reserved for A&D's only. Just my opinion.

Maybe my problem is I am too competitive. I don't have a problem with losing to a better driver...no matter age or size, but man do I get steamed when I get beat by a lesser driver due to a bum kart.

[MPIGP - Phillip Gordon]

Greg

Here is the info on the WC event at CIR:

Event Name: Karting at Chicago Indoor Racing
Location: Chicago Indoor Racing
Address: 301 Hastings Drive
Buffalo Grove, IL 60089
Date: Saturday, March 18, 2006
Time: 11:30 am
Fee: $40.00 to drive
Description: This is the March General Membership Meeting. Pre-registration is required to race. Check your Breeze.

Jean Trinka is handling pre-registration. Drop me an e-mail and I'll forward her contact info.

You can also go to www.windycitybmw.com for info on other driving events and general club info.

Phil

[CIR - Tony Stewart]

Phil

I really do not have that much spare time which is why I normally avoid getting involved in these postings. However, I do need to clear up some inaccuracies regarding my direct involvement and the conversations that took place between me and others in order to set the record straight and make sure that my position is clear.

1. During timed practice Timmy's team was half a second off the pole, not one and a half seconds off the pole and their average lap was just 2/10ths off the pole sitters.

2. No one approached me in the tower during practice - I was in my office for most of the time and went straight to pit lane when I saw that Matt and Timmy had qualified half a second off the pole. Matt told me that the kart handled well, it just didn't accelerate consistently. We traced the problem to a faulty choke that would necessitate a carb change and therefore offered a replacement kart or a fix. At that time I informed the "team" what was happening and Matt tested the kart for a few UNTIMED laps and when he came into the pits opted to start in that kart. No one told him he was going quicker. In testing, their original kart had gone quicker than their replacement kart....

3. It is possible that Timmy spoke to a staff member and complained; I can't confirm or deny that. My actions were prompted by what I had seen and what I knew of the drivers involved.

4. As you rightly state, seeing that the problem had returned during the race we made the offer of the spare again and this time it was accepted.

5. As for whether or not they would have won, we'll never know. Despite an amazing lap of 30.04 by Timmy running clockwise - MB Racing averaged 31.194 second laps over the last 51 laps; the winners, Serbo Italia, averaged 31.121second laps. The times are taken after the change to kart 31. The race would have been close, but a win was by no means certain - regardless of the kart.

I am sure that you have been kept informed of Timmy's progress through his father's updates. I enjoy receiving them, although they do serve as a constant reminder that regardless of the amount of money and expertise expended during a racing weekend things will sometimes, more often than not, go wrong. Indeed there have been numerous stories of untraceable setup problems, chassis problems, engine problems, etc., etc. that have lead to a poor result in spite of the resources and expertise available. That is the reality of karting at Timmy's level and I am sure that on each and every occasion he has spent considerably more than the $55 entry fee that he paid Sunday evening.

I was speaking with the regular (either Mark Hirt or Martin Lenick) during the race in which Stefan pulled in numerous times. We all knew where the problem lay and it wasn't really with the karts. Since that time it has become a standing joke with the driver and everyone understands it for what it was.

Whenever kart problems are bought to our attention by members of the public these problems are looked into and wherever possible rectified. Many of the problems are only discernible by about 1% of our customer base due to the fact that the other 99% aren't skilled or experienced enough to exploit the full potential of the karts in the first place.

Out of a fleet of 50+ karts we select the 18 most comparable karts for events of this nature. There are karts that are removed because they are too fast, others that are too slow. While there is the odd kart that may never see the light of day in competition, the vast majority rotate in and out of the pool.

I have no problem with you attending our facility or speaking with our customers - if I did I would have mentioned something. Anyone who knows me knows that I have no problem speaking my mind. Indeed, I have sent many people your way and if I can ever find time would like to take part in your Masters Series (do you have a sub category for people over 40? The odds of winning might be better!)

I understand competition; I understand the frustrations of not being on the pace regardless of whether the problem is with me, the kart (mine or anyone else’s) or the combination of the two. But that, I'm afraid, is racing and probably explains why I now derive more pleasure from helping young drivers take part than racing myself.

I hope that this matter can now be bought to a close and that we can all understand what it is that CIR is attempting to provide to the enthusiast - the lowest cost (in terms of time and money) entry into competitive motor sports available. I have raced with you on many occasions in the past and I truly believe that both of us raced as hard and as competitively as we have in any other arena and while I understand the limitations of what we are able to provide, I've also been around long enough to know that at any level these problems happen - witness Ferrari of 2005 versus 2006......

Regards



Tony