2009 CES schedule

[Jeff Salak]

The CES series is having a 7 race season, stoping at 4 tracks. With Gratten, Blackhawk, and Gingerman getting double race weekends. And the single race day at Road America.

Its always fun to feel the draft at 95 mph and make the pass!:shooting_smilie2:

http://www.championshipenduro.com/schedule.html

[rct25]

Karts and their parts are designed and made for SPRINT KARTING TRACKS


Roberto

[Jeff Salak]

You have to try it Roberto. Its alot of fun. More track time- longer race. Try Blackhawk its like a big Badger kart track. Its not anymore dangerous, to me, as a sprint track. Get way more people in sprint racing making stupid moves. Route 66 race at Concepts last year in Masters. Is one example that happened to me!
Something to me that should be an automatic DQ is bump drafting. No place for it in Kart racing at 100mph. If I dont bump draft I may not win. But I enjoy the small races that are going on as a whole in Road racing. At Road America I was in a group of 7 karts for 20 min going from the front to the back drafting each other. Just a different rush you dont get in Sprint racing.
Its not for everybody I understand but dont knock it.

I think a kart will hold up just fine in Road racing. If they can hold up to 70 or 80mph on sprint track. I think they are okay on a road track averaging those speeds that you top out at in sprint racing.

[Jim R]

Jeff, sounds like fun! I would like to tag aong with you at least once in 09.
Jim

[Jeff Salak]

That would be great Jim. Im sure there will be 4 or 5 of us going this year to Blackhawk. Nice to see your still around.:)

All of the tracks are fun kart tracks.
As far as bump drafting, if someone tries when your in front of them and you dont like it. A simple wave of the middle finger lets them know your not into it.:bugeye:

[Jim R]

Yep ...still around! just healing and can't wait to get back in a kart. What is this you went Rotax?:shakehead:

[Rick]

Yep ...still around! just healing and can't wait to get back in a kart. What is this you went Rotax?:shakehead:

Jim, what are you healing from?

[Jim R]

Rotator cuff! and now about 15lbs of fat:redface:

[Rick]

I hope you get better soon. I miss racing with you.

[Jim R]

Jeff, or anyone in the know what do I need to know for tag as far as kart set up and rules for road racing?

[Rick]

Someone (I think David Yourd) told me that you want to slow the steering down. Do that by adjusting where the tie rods connect.

Ryan and I raced in the Adam Schatz benefit race at Blackhawk and pretty much left the kart the way it was.

Rules - no bump drafting!

[Jim R]

Thanks Rick, what gear did you use and did you change the clutch?
Jim

[Jeff Salak]

Jim, a 16t driver is one thing you will need. You have a Leopard right? I know Fastech Racing has them. Not sure if there is any performance gain, but they sell a Friction hub or clutch for Road racing. Not sure what difference there is between a Sprint hub and a RR hub. Maybe someone can help with this.

TAG/USA has not put up there approved tires yet. Not sure when that will come out. I run Dunlops for Road racing. I like a softer tire for RR. I like to have as much grip as possible!

Jim as far as kart set-up, Im still totally lost when this comes into play. I would think you wouldn't want the kart as loose as you would have it for Sprint racing. May put front bar in. I run with both bars(torsion) in for RR. Although I see many guys who dont.
I run with front brakes. Alot dont. My kart had them when I bought mine, so I use them in RR.

Rick, is right if Josh Lane or David Yourd came in thread. There input would help. Or Andy Fink as he did very well in Road Racing. All my stupid questions I would always send out to Adam Schatz. He was my help, sent many private messages to him. He was always happy to reply. He was by far my best help.
Now I just go out and run.
Jeff

[Rick]

I believe guys at the front (David Yourd and Josh Lane) ran a 16/74, if I remember correctly. I think Ryan and I ran a 16/80. We were basically flat out on the throttle the whole time.

[Jeff Salak]

Rick, did you guys run the RR friction hub or clutch?

You guys ran well with not being close on gearing. I would think you guys would have been a couple seconds a lap faster if you did so. With an even better result.

My friends Italian Kart and Leopard,the one Im picking up before season gets started. He was told by Fastech to use the RR friction hub when he was thinking about going RR with me. He bought front brakes and 16T driver with hub. He never went, so I'm getting it all new. Just wondering if this is just another way for them to suck more money out of us or if this is recommended to use it. The difference in price is only about $5 or $10between the 2.

[JET Karting - Andy Finke]

Ok... Just got back from the Cycleworld Motorcycle Show at Rosemont. Great show, and I'm finally back online. Let me take a stab at this and feel free to ask more or whatever I forget.

Disclaimer-
I run Birel or Monza, and this worked for me. I'm not sure that it will all be exactly the same for other brands...



tires:
MG's like to run 14psi hot. Don't change it from sprint to more or less. More traction from the tires working at best pressure still gains grip.

seat:
Tip the seat back if you are going to run seriously. If its your first shot at RR, just run your sprint setup. When tipping it back, make sure to check the rules and not go to far. IIRC, you have to have 14" to the top of the seat back. Give yourself an extra 1/8" or a little more to be sure you don't get bounced if they check it. I ran a T8 tillett, same as I do sprint.

front end:
You'll want to free up the kart, and do with as little bite as you can to be fast. Min caster and 2mm toe out is what I run. It will push. Drive smoother. If you are having trouble, go in steps and get better lines a little at a time. All the fast guys did it this way too.

rear end:
At least one seat strut each side. I run 54" or so overall. Soften the kart to loosen it up as much as you can stand.

gearing:
I ran the Leopard to turn roughly 14,500 top end. Data acquisition helps a lot in testing of best gear. There are guys that gear for closer to 13,800 rpm though so you'll hear some of that in the pits. 16t driver for sure, and you'll need a countersunk hub to make it work. Run o-ring chain and NEVER miss a chance to lube it with xeramic.

clutch:
The RR clutch engages at 500rpm or so lower. This is to help control the heat that the tall gearing creates on takeoff. Be VERY thoughtful of keeping clutch use to absolute minimum. Don't drive in the pits, don't leave the pits uphill, don't spin out, etc. I could get clutchs to last a season, but most get a couple weekends tops. You can kill one in a day if you do everything wrong.

leopard carb:
I run 1-1/8 turn on high and low, and adjust a little from there. Be very careful with anything over 1000 egt. It climbs fast up there, and there isn't a 'magic' number where it will stick. Ask me how I learned that...

driving:
Just like sprint, carring more speed THROUGH the corner nets a faster straight speed. Stragihts are much longer in RR, making this even more apparent. Slow is fast. Slow movements make fast times that is.

drinking:
You guys can likely teach me something in this area, but I do know that you should always have a beer for the guys beside you... RR is really friendly racing as long as you don't win more that your fair share. It is still racing after all.


What did I miss?


Andy

[Jim R]

Thanks for all of the responses. Are the tires done after one weekend?
I hope to get a few RR in this season. I am sure I will ask more questions as I think of them.
Jim

[avmaviator]

I'm with Jim, I would like to tag along for one of the races, preferably Blackhawk.

Only if I figure out how to drive the damn thing :rofl:

Jeff, are you willing to accept a case(s) of brew for me to leech on for a race? haha.

[Jeff Salak]

Jim, one set of tires will last fine for a couple races. On practice day Friday use a used set and learn the track. Saturday morning practice run the new ones or wait for the race. Be good for Sunday too. Then you may have some practice left in them for practice at Concepts or the next RR practice. Just my opinion. Tires dont get beat up as bad, as sprint racing by any means.
I'm sure the top guys may change every race. I dont, if I ever get good enough to run up front. I will worry about that then.

Andy, thanks for the great info!!!


Arno, your welcome to join us anytime! If you need me to take your kart no problem. Will get you out there.

With a Tag you can get 2 races in with Senior Tag and Tag heavy. May have to add some lead but its nice to get 2 30 minute races in a day.

I have to say Road America is a must too. With Man Cup there the same weekend. It should be alot of fun this year!!

Jeff

[Rick]

I'm with Jim, I would like to tag along for one of the races, preferably Blackhawk.

Only if I figure out how to drive the damn thing :rofl:

Jeff, are you willing to accept a case(s) of brew for me to leech on for a race? haha.

I'm pretty sure almost anyone here will teach you anything you want for a case. :thumbsup:

[Jeff Salak]

Looks like Tag/USA has come out with approved tires. No Dunlops anymore!:shakehead:
Guess Andy will be selling me some MG's.
These are for Sprint and Road Race events.


Manufacturer / Slicks / Rain

Bridgestone/ YKB/ YKP
MG/ MZ Yellows/ WZ
Maxxis/ MH/ WT8
Hoosier/ R60

[avmaviator]

I wonder why that is.... Dunlop doesn't want to give Tag USa their season's allowance? :)

[Jeff Salak]

Now I see on Ekarting news. Marty Casey of Tag/USA has come out and said Dunlop are approved for Road racing. They also went to say that RR tires are an open compound.

That tires on Tag/USA site are for sprint racing. They will update for RR on site soon.

Tag/USA and WKA should get there shit together. They are going 2 different direction hurting racers in general. Just my opinion, but this sport need one set of rules to make it easier for everyone. Instead they try and out do each other. Creating nothing but confusion and higher cost to the racers.

[JET Karting - Andy Finke]

From what I'm seeing, WKA and TAGUSA are not doing anything to out do each other. They are just doing things completely independant of each other.

Just for fun... Who in the midwest is running TAGUSA rules?

I think this issue will continue to 'work itself out'.


Andy

[Jeff Salak]

Andy, what you call independance and what I call trying to out do each other is about the same thing. They should be trying to help the racers. In this economy they may want to keep the racers they have. I wouldn't think there will be many newbies this year getting into karting. To cut off an approved engine or make these tires obsolete is not the direction karting should be going at this time. Things are tight for most people. Sure the rich will always be rich. If thats what all the karting people want for business is rich people thats fine. But they are the first to get out of sport cause they can afford to go on to bigger and better things. The middle guy stays in this sport as a racing sport cause this is all he will ever be able to afford.

CES series is following Tag/USA rules. Thats why these questions are there. May not be any Tag/Usa sprint racing going on now around us.

In sports all over the world. There is usually only one set of rules for each sport. Sure there may be variations for younger kids or the Olyimpics change the rules of Basketball a bit and maybe some other sports. All in all there is one set of rules.

How about kart racing in Europe, How many sanction bodies do they have? This sport isnt that large to have different sets of rules. Your average Joe scratches his head trying to figure out what the heck is going on. And says screw it, Im buying a boat or a motorcycle.

Jeff

[JET Karting - Andy Finke]

I hear you Jeff, and agree even. TAGUSA has changed over and over through the last few seasons. WKA does several things that I don't like, but the rules have been pretty stable.

Stable is what everything needs right now.

With WKA being the most stable, that is who we went with. Most of the rest of the region has as well. CES and RIGP are the only two TAGUSA places that I know off the top of my head, so others think like you and I do too.

Keep your head up. Believe it or not, the industry is getting better a little at a time.


Andy

[avmaviator]

I agree Jeff.

Unfortunetly they will keep at it because there is not a large "force" to drive to unification or standarization. What the karting world needs is a big ass strike to force the issue. Everybody bitches about it, and they have to/should, but they organisation don't care. Of course a lot of things could be solved in the world with mass mobilization against something, but that usually doesn't happen.

Anyways, the warm weather is slowly approaching! Just disregard the snow we will have tomorrow :rofl:

[JET Karting - Andy Finke]

Ah, hell. Strike would mean that the racers were all in agreement. Racers can't agree anymore than the Sanctioning Bodies can.

I started in the early '80's when I was 6. This sport is MUCH better than it was then. Though some of the old-timers dream of days gone by.

Karts turn better, stop better, engines last longer, are easier to start, and the racing is exponentially better across the board. I don't miss the 'good ole days', but I do wish we had the economy back from the 90's....


Andy

[Jim R]

Andy, you are correct racing is better but when the economy turns bad you have to change with it not expect it to come to you.

My .02
Success now is in the details! Yep the karts turn better start easier and so on. WHAT IS MISSING? When the economy runs strong the cost goes up, better equipment, more gadgets to buy like e box or in line thermostats, better than stock radiators, and so on. Basically this has slowly priced the average racer right out of the game. Shifters are the perfect example.

Want to bring racers back to the game? How about tires that last half of the season or at the very least four races, pump gas, choice of oil, and an engine package that actually is affordable and will not over rev and blow up no matter who drives it! The cost of rebuild is just too much for most. Many racers quit the sport out of disgust when they compare the COST TO FUN ratio.

This has defiantly become a rich mans sport look around attendance has certainly dropped off. There used to be a pit area full of pick up trucks with a kart in the bed now custom trailers full of new equipment giving the pick up truck racer no chance to compete with his wallet.
This has to be handled on the local track owner’s level and they can’t be held hostage by the rule makers that do not have the track owners or racers best interest in mind. The rules are good guidelines to follow for safety and fairness but also if followed to closely can hurt the local racing community’s economy.
Do not be afraid to make local rules for local racers on equipment that can change the cost of racing and increase the COST TO FUN ratio on a weekly basis. You may be pleasantly surprised!

Jim Rektorski

[Jim R]

[QUOTE=And says screw it, Im buying a boat or a motorcycle.

Jeff[/QUOTE]

Jeff, I can help you out in this area.
Jim

[rct25]

Jim,

You just said it the best way possible......I agree with you 100%..
Here are a few examples of what tracks can do.......and just look at the numbers that Badger gets every race day....

Tires

Bridgestone YHC only. No tire treatment allowed. One set per race for heat and feature races. In conjunction with the current governing tire rules; drivers will be limited to 4 sets of tires for the season that can be used on race dates. Drivers can use as many sets as they would like for practice and testing days. New tires will be tagged/branded by the Series Director and should be presented to the Series Director prior to mounting. On race day drivers will be DQ’d for not running marked tires in a heat or feature race. The selling of tires to another driver beyond their 4 set allotment for the purpose using in a race will not be allowed.

http://www.badgerkartclub.com/clsreq.htm#crotnote

2-Cycle uses a spec gas; BP premium gasoline available at the BP gas station on highway 67.

[Jeff Salak]

Roberto, that spec fuel at Badger is for all other 2 cycle classes except Tag. You need to use race fuel in Tag. I found out the hard way my first race there. Read those rules picked up gas from that gas station. Race my first heat race. They checked are fuel and I didnt pass. For the next half hour I was bitched at by the race director for Tag Masters, that I should know better. I kindly said that the rules state to get fuel at the BP. He just kept giving me the third degree.
My friend Andrew who raced also that day never went back because of this.


Jeff

[Jeff Salak]

Jim, I have a nice bass boat. It sits with a tarp on it behind the barn!

A dozen worms are alot cheeper than racing!:whistle:

[rct25]

Jeff,

Thanks for the clarification on the rules; mainly, I was trying to show examples of what tracks can do to control cost.

Roberto

[Jeff Salak]

No problem Roberto, just wanted Tag guys to know that race fuel is needed in Tag at Badger.

I agree with Jim and yourself 100%. Jim did nail it!
Karting was meant for the average Joe to get out there and have a blast and enjoy the competition. But now to compete you need the engine of the month club, new tires every race. The list never ends.

[JET Karting - Andy Finke]

I hear what you are saying, and agree much of the time. The one area that makes the most difference is the area I have the least control of though... The racer. We are our own worst enemy some times, and I'm just as guilty as anyone in the drivers seat. We all spend like a drunken sailer on raceday, then have buyers remorse all week, right?


When the economy runs strong the cost goes up, better equipment, more gadgets to buy like e box or in line thermostats, better than stock radiators, and so on. Basically this has slowly priced the average racer right out of the game. Shifters are the perfect example.

And TAG is little better than shifters sometimes. But try and tell a racer that in the showroom. Everyone 'needs' more power. Everyone 'needs' more data.

How many drivers can use an ebox to get faster? Most don't NEED it.

But shops/tracks get asked for the higher HP, faster classes all the time.


Want to bring racers back to the game? How about tires that last half of the season or at the very least four races, pump gas, choice of oil, and an engine package that actually is affordable and will not over rev and blow up no matter who drives it! The cost of rebuild is just too much for most. Many racers quit the sport out of disgust when they compare the COST TO FUN ratio.

I agree. And we have two classes like that. Spec Racer and Supercan. You don't get all the TAG speed, but you will likely have more fun.

Spec Racer - 55mph
Tires should last most of a season.
Pump gas, and it's provided as part of your entry fee.
Any oil you want. Run 30 weight Sam's Club special if you'd like.
No engine trouble so far. Don't expect any if you keep oil in it.
Sealed engine, no blueprinting to get 'rules creep'.
$150 or less for a new engine.
$1749 complete, ready to race.
More fun with these racing in a pack than with a TAG racing alone...


Supercan - 65mph
Tires last 4 weeks
Race gas & Burris, but only a gallon a day.
Ring mid-season, overhaul at the end of year.
Low trouble, hard to blow up.
Few secrets out there, but need an engine builder
$2500 used, $5000 new.
Faster, but not super expensive.




This isn't a rich mans sport all the way through. But the top of the sport is, and TAG is at the top. Rotax is better, but still high priced and VERY fast.

Spec Racer is gaining momentum quickly, and Supercan would be great to have back. Know anyone that would like to run it?


Andy

[Jim R]

Andy, I would run supercan! To stay out front... new tires every 2 races, engine must be prof built, clutch disk every 2 races. Again not really what I am looking for.
Jim

[JET Karting - Andy Finke]

Sounds like you should take a look at the Spec Racer. Come try one this spring. Not expensive, and I can tell you it's WAY more fun than you think it should be. I've run up front in Supercan, TAG, and Shifter, and still this give me a big goofy grin.

Easy to maintain, which is awful nice now that I have a Sportsman driver...


Andy

[Jim R]

Andy, I am very interested in checking it out. I would already commit to it if it were on my chassis. I know that defeats the point but I already have 3 chassis and I don’t need 6.

[Jim R]

big goofy grin.... boy could I have fun with that!

[JET Karting - Andy Finke]

Calm your thoughts...

I'm married. You're not going to have fun with my big goofy anything.

:bugeye:


Andy

[Jim R]

:shakehead:

[Jeff Stamper]

This thread started out about sprint karts on Enduro tracks. Now listen here you young whipper snappers ! I used to race back in the day (early 70's) and we were at Blackhawk Farms when River Valley ran the first sprint karts there. I am here to tell you, it was a friggin blast. That is exactly as someone else said in this thread, a great big sprint track. The only turn anyone on a sprinter had any trouble in was turn 3 and 4 , also known as the carousel. Because its a high speed turn, you have to drift through it, so you start out going in low like a sprint turn and as you progress through that turn, you let it drift way out as you exit. The problem back then was the karts were narrower and they became top heavy there. In the first race ever, they had no less than 7 karts flip in that turn ! It was soooooo cool. Then you get to the next left hander and the enduros had to let off, but inb the sprint it was wide open. The only place the enduros were really faster id down the long chutes. But turn 9 is a nightmare for enduro karts with no background to judge, so they had shift signs up (5,4,3,2,1) and we ran almost wide open in the sprinters. Another track that is a blast in a sprinter is Gratten. If you go there, please take the time to memorize the track though. The turns sneak up on you in a hurry !! I cant wait to take the Rotax out on all these tracks this year. Its been a long time, but I love those tracks. While I am thinking about it, Andy, you got any 16 tooth drivers for the Rotax old clutch ?