2007.05.21 Lotus Corps Track Day @ Blackhawk Farms

[Rick]

I'll be there. Perhaps Reed, Peter or Chris Lupo will join me! :) Martin, you can bring the conversion van.

http://home.earthlink.net/~lotuscorps/trackday/ (http://home.earthlink.net/%7Elotuscorps/trackday/)

[peterjank]

Sounds like fun.

[Rick]

We should get Lupo to punt that guy who hit Steve. :grinyes:

[Hornswoggler]

I am registered for this event!! Can't wait!

[CIR-Reed]

Who are you?

[Hornswoggler]

Who are you?

Let me know which forum to post intro threads, and I will...

[Rick]

Let me know which forum to post intro threads, and I will...

Racer's Lounge

[Mark Hirt]

Who are you?

Just yet another person that was allowed to register for this forum under the witness protection program.

Maybe he is mythical creature spawned from Roald Dahl's novel Charlie and the Chocolate Factory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornswoggler).

[Hornswoggler]

haha, actually I picked this as my handle on Internet chess servers about 10 years ago... as to Hoodwink and Bamboozle (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/Hornswoggle)! ;)

[Rick]

Just got invited to instruct at this event by the event coordinator. This will be my first time instructing. Any advice? Do any of you guys have track notes for Blackhawk Farms? And what's up with all the trees??? Are they trying to induce target fixation? :confused: :grinno:

16zUQ9fs3dQ

[Mark Hirt]

Don't go off in 1 (the trees are in another state)
Don't go in the swamp drivers right at and just after 5
Don't go in the swamp between 5 and 6
Turn right at 7

There are white dots "on the racing line"

[Rick]

http://blackhawkfarms.com//bhf/images/BHFTrackmap8ts.gif

Are there any dangerous corners like Autobahn's South Track's turn 3?

[MPIGP - Phillip Gordon]

http://blackhawkfarms.com//bhf/images/BHFTrackmap8ts.gif

Are there any dangerous corners like Autobahn's South Track's turn 3?

Rick

Turn 4 is where most offs result in damage due to 1) a nasty curbing and 2) the tire wall being pretty close to the track.

Turn 7 off will result in a wet landing

[Rick]

Turn right at 7

Do some people forget to turn? Or go into hot and then run out of track?

[Rick]

Rick

Turn 4 is where most offs result in damage due to 1) a nasty curbing and 2) the tire wall being pretty close to the track.

Turn 7 off will result in a wet landing


Thanks Phil! I'll watch out for those two corners. BTW, how wet is "wet"? Is there a pond there?

[MPIGP - Phillip Gordon]

Do some people forget to turn? Or go into hot and then run out of track?

The braking zone is downhill and right after a slight righthand kink. The guys that have trouble are usually the ones that don't get the car straight before braking or they try a late pass and go in too deep.

[MPIGP - Phillip Gordon]

Thanks Phil! I'll watch out for those two corners. BTW, how wet is "wet"? Is there a pond there?

I can't say from personal experience, thank God, but the last guy I heard that went off there was buried up to the doors. They say it's like a swamp.

[CIR-Reed]

I highly recommend NOT paying attention to the trees as you go around the track. From time to time you do spot some interesting wildlife. Sometimes even on the racing surface. Beware of turtles, and cute little bunny rabbits. You feel really bad cleaning them out of the front of your car. There isn't really any danger in turn 7 other than getting really messy.

Going around the track

Turn 1: Turn 1 is a very nice turn when you get it right. Do not be in a hurry when exiting turn 1 to get back to the right for turn 2. you have more time than you think. The curbing on the inside is large and can upset the car. the curbing on the exit is very nice and flat and very gently drops you onto the gravelish stuff.

Turn 2: Drive ON the curb not next to it. There generally isn't any need to track out all the way to the right on exit and if you don't it makes your braking nicer for the carousel entry. The curb at the apex here is nice and smooth. You can even put the left side tires in the grass here and if the car is nicely loaded you barely even notice it.

Turn 3: Make a point to put your right side tires on the apex strip. Your car may be a little taller so you might be able to see it from farther away. I usually turn in when I can see the strip in the SRF. Be careful about getting too far to the outside, it can be very slippery not because of the surface but because of rubber/gravel/debris on the outside of the track.

Turn 3D: The curbs are tall here as well. Make sure to just light touch each one as you go through and you SHOULD be in a hurry here to get to the left side for the braking. This is a hard braking zone and can easily lure you into going to deep. There is a small strip of concrete on the left side. It is very slippery, so avoid it like cops on free donut day. Exiting this corner is interesting. It seems as though if you carry more speed your lap times are better but you feel as though you scrub some speed as the car slides a little bit to the right and then again to the left. My lap times have been better carrying the extra speed and allowing a larger slip angle (which is generally slower). I can show you this strange data sometime if you like. It doesn't seem to make sense.

Turn 4: Turn 4 as Phil mentioned is the corner where the most car to wall damage seems to occur. It is actually quite a fast corner if done properly (read: only corner on the track where Tonis is slower than me muahaha...sorry enough of that). The apex curb and the exit curb here are both VERY large and can seriously upset your car. I have found that it is best to be right next to the apex curb, don't touch it at all. The exit curb on the other hand you can drive up onto. It makes the car feel like it is doing some funny stuff but once you get used to it the data shows that it is faster to have your right side tires completely up and on it.

Turn 5: Turn 5 is flat out in the SRF and in our Elise. I think it is flat in most cars unless they are quite heavy with lots of horsepower. I think the GT1 cars break here and I know that Atlantics, continentals, formula mazda, srf, and most IT cars that I have watched take it flat. It is important here as well to put your left side tires ON the small concrete strip at the apex. If youre tires go over the concrete at the beginning or in the middle of the concrete you have turned in a tick to early. You want to apex towards the end of the concrete strip. This turn will make you nervous the first few times through. There is more runoff than you think and remember to just look down track and keep focused on where you are going.

Turn 6: The curbs in turn 6 are fairly large as well. They aren't as big as turn 4 but they are big. Just like I said about turn 4, you want to drive your left side tires up and onto the curb and it feels weird at first but its not a bad thing. My biggest mistake for this corner is to overcook it a bit in anticipation of the long straight that follows. It is important to keep yourself calm and hit your marks here. This corner dictates your speed all the way down into turn 7, which is in effect the longest straight on the course. Another thing to keep in mind here. The access road can save you or spin you. If you go over the curb and are traveling through the gravel here try and get the front wheels pointed so that when you hit the access road it corrects the car. If you come off the gravel and onto the access road with the front wheels crossed up big time the car will suddenly over correct and you will spin the other direction. I have done this a couple times, its pretty fun until you realize that you just wasted probably 2 laps of qualifying. out of the 12 that you will get.

Turn 7: As Phil said the braking zone here is slightly downhill. It is almost undetectable in a car but it does go down hill ever so slightly. I have tried going through this corner several different ways and what seems to yield the best result is apexing the slight right "kink" sort of thing and then brake in a straight line towards the outside of the track. If you get it right you end up with the left wheels just on the edge of the track and you can straighten out just briefly before turn in. The apex curb here isn't as large as some of the other turns but it will bounce the car a bit. The exit curbing is just like turn one. You want to drive onto the curbing and off the end of it. It is no big deal here to put a couple wheels off because there isn't any sort of dip going of the curb or anything. I have seen people get a bit squirly coming back onto the track because the correct to quickly and kind of pop back onto the track rather than driving onto the track. The pit exit is on the right side going down the straight and beware of people trying to pass you before cutting over to enter the pits.


I suggest spending as much time as you can standing in the different corner stations watching what people are doing. The stations are very accessible at blackhawk even during sessions. They are also elevated slightly and close to the racing surface.

There will be a bald guy around there named I think Tom. He runs the place and is a super cool guy. Get him chatting about motorcycles and he will go for hours.

Most of all, have fun and be respectful of the facility and the other drivers on the track and you will have a great day.

What day are you going?

[Rick]

Thanks for the detailed notes! These will be really helpful.

The date that I'm going is in the subject of this thread.

2007.05.21

You should go too! :evil_lol:

[CIR-Reed]

Think your pretty sneaky with that whole "date as the subject trick" eh? I'm on to you.

I would love to go but I am saving every last penny for racing as many races as I can this year.

It looks as though I will be racing on the 29th at blackhawk. It isn't confirmed yet. I will be there either way. We should have a chicagoracers barbeque at lunchtime!

[MPIGP - Phillip Gordon]

Excellent details of a lap around BFR Reed.

Rick...the tip for turn 5 is right on target. Turn in early and that turn can get really scary but if you take a late apex, you can drive through it flat out. I take the same line that Reed mentions going into 7, I apex the slight kink then brake in a straight line going across the track. It sets up a nice late apex into 7. You may want to trail brake here to rotate the rear end so you can be flat on the throttle before you hit the apex. That will give you a good run down the front straight.

[Rick]

Think your pretty sneaky with that whole "date as the subject trick" eh? I'm on to you.

I would love to go but I am saving every last penny for racing as many races as I can this year.

It looks as though I will be racing on the 29th at blackhawk. It isn't confirmed yet. I will be there either way. We should have a chicagoracers barbeque at lunchtime!

29th of which month? I'll be in Atlanta on April 29th. But I'll be here May 29th.

[CIR-Reed]

April 29th

[Rick]

:frown: I'm going to miss the race and the barbeque. Good luck on the race and tell me how it goes!

[Rick]

Hornswoggler: Are you going to give me a ride? :evil_lol:

[Hornswoggler]

absolutely!

I actually have some blackhawk in-car on my myspace page (http://www.myspace.com/collinmizeur)

[Rick]

:uhoh: After watching you go off 3 times, I'm not sure I want a ride anymore :grinno:

j/k

[Hornswoggler]

haha, i only went off twice...

that third incident might have been running somebody else off the road, lol. I learned a few lessons that day:

- Braking is more important than waving after passing faster cars :D
- Just because somebody gives a point-by, doesn't mean I have to take it
- Don't always trust the pit marshall for a clean track entry. Different organizations give different positions the right-of-way (in other words, is it the car entering the track that has right of way because the "hot" car has a better view of whats going on, or does the hot car have right away because they were already in flight?? Believe it or not, organizations are different in who gets the right of way)

Lessons learned.

[Rick]

I hope you bring your TraqMate! I want to check that thing out.:)

[Hornswoggler]

Here is a previous thread of mine:

Data Acquisiton from Blackhawk (http://www.euroteknik.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21899)

I hope to learn from that data so I can improve on it next event!

[MPIGP - Phillip Gordon]

Here is a previous thread of mine:

Data Acquisiton from Blackhawk (http://www.euroteknik.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21899)

I hope to learn from that data so I can improve on it next event!

Collin

BFR is definitely a rhythm track and having faith in your tires helps a lot, especially in turns 2 and 5. Also because of this, IMHO I think it favors lighter cars. Even with lower hp, I was able to turn quicker laps than the E36 M3's...I got down to a personal best of 1:21.4 in my E30 325is on used Hoosiers. Personally I think the Hoosiers are good for about 2-3 secs/lap vs street tires.

[Mark Hirt]

- Don't always trust the pit marshall for a clean track entry. Different organizations give different positions the right-of-way (in other words, is it the car entering the track that has right of way because the "hot" car has a better view of whats going on, or does the hot car have right away because they were already in flight?? Believe it or not, organizations are different in who gets the right of way)

Really don't have a clue what some organizations do the "racing" ones (SCCA and IMSA) give the rights to the car "ON TRACK" (personally I cannot see why anyone would be doing it differently)

At Blackhawk Farms there is a while line that goes all the way down to corner 1. Cross it at an SCCA event (even at the start of a session) and you can expect to visit a steward after or during the session.

[MPIGP - Phillip Gordon]

Really don't have a clue what some organizations do the "racing" ones (SCCA and IMSA) give the rights to the car "ON TRACK" (personally I cannot see why anyone would be doing it differently)

At Blackhawk Farms there is a while line that goes all the way down to corner 1. Cross it at an SCCA event (even at the start of a session) and you can expect to visit a steward after or during the session.

That's the only way I've ever known, HPDE or racing. Mark, as a corner worker, did you see Collin do anything wrong? IMHO I don't think he did. It's just a track day so if I were in his shoes I would've slowed down and given the car on the flying lap lots of room, but in a race, I wouldn't. As long as the 'entering' car stays to the right of the white line, the inside line to the turn is his. The car that went off in the video looks to me like he wanted to get ahead of Collin and tried taking the turn at speed around the outside. It looks to me like he couldn't get the car to turn in and he flew off the track. That was a mis-judgement on his part.

[Hornswoggler]

In hindsight, I should have been paying closer attention to my mirrors. I knew that other car was coming, I could hear the exhaust note... but never knew exacly where they were.

Call me spoiled but I put too much faith in the pit boss that the track would be clear for my entry. Yes, I did stay to my side of the blend line, the conflict happened right around apex.

On one hand, the car on track has a MUCH better view of whats going on than I did. Always easier to look ahead than behind and hopefully gauge travelling speeds and who will meet when. I think we both had some responsibilities and since I have gained a better understanding of who should have the right of way (but yes, I have seen it go both ways, depending on the organization).

Lesson learned.

[Mark Hirt]

That's the only way I've ever known, HPDE or racing. Mark, as a corner worker, did you see Collin do anything wrong? IMHO I don't think he did. It's just a track day so if I were in his shoes I would've slowed down and given the car on the flying lap lots of room, but in a race, I wouldn't. As long as the 'entering' car stays to the right of the white line, the inside line to the turn is his. The car that went off in the video looks to me like he wanted to get ahead of Collin and tried taking the turn at speed around the outside. It looks to me like he couldn't get the car to turn in and he flew off the track. That was a mis-judgement on his part.

Well to me Collin looked to be coming into 1 quite quick for being "off the racing line" especially when there is a car on a hot lap "on the line". I actually think Collin should thank the other BMW driver for having enough control of his/her car to avoid him.

Since this is not a race you can say both drivers do share responsibility but keep in mind what goes around comes around. Lets say you make a great exit off 7, look up the track and see open track all the way into 1 (can you say hot lap), then this car files out of the pits and while not even checking his/her mirrors sticks it into 1 forcing you to jump all over the brakes or modify your line to avoid contact.

It's kind of like when your driving down the highway and some jerk pulls out right in front of you... After catching your breath you look in the mirror and see NO ONE BEHIND YOU. Whats the rush? It's not going to be your fastest lap but it could be his/hers.

note to Collin..... Brake eariler into 6, slow in fast out. I nail that corner in the Wrecker :takecover:

[MPIGP - Phillip Gordon]

Well to me Collin looked to be coming into 1 quite quick for being "off the racing line" especially when there is a car on a hot lap "on the line". I actually think Collin should thank the other BMW driver for having enough control of his/her car to avoid him.

Since this is not a race you can say both drivers do share responsibility but keep in mind what goes around comes around. Lets say you make a great exit off 7, look up the track and see open track all the way into 1 (can you say hot lap), then this car files out of the pits and while not even checking his/her mirrors sticks it into 1 forcing you to jump all over the brakes or modify your line to avoid contact.

It's kind of like when your driving down the highway and some jerk pulls out right in front of you... After catching your breath you look in the mirror and see NO ONE BEHIND YOU. Whats the rush? It's not going to be your fastest lap but it could be his/hers.

note to Collin..... Brake eariler into 6, slow in fast out. I nail that corner in the Wrecker :takecover:

Do you have a car hooked up when you do that? :grinno:

Now there's an idea....how about a corner worker race with the tow trucks? Has this ever been done? I bet somewhere in Europe it's been done already....they may even have a series :grinno:

[Hornswoggler]

yeah, i definately need to increase my corner entry speeds. Was only my first time at BHF, I know there is a lot of time left on the table.

edit:
One thing I dont like about BHF is the corner numberings. I think there should be more numbers as not to leave any quesiton of the first part of 6, second part of 6, or 6a, lol!

[Rick]

Well to me Collin looked to be coming into 1 quite quick for being "off the racing line" especially when there is a car on a hot lap "on the line". I actually think Collin should thank the other BMW driver for having enough control of his/her car to avoid him.

Since this is not a race you can say both drivers do share responsibility but keep in mind what goes around comes around. Lets say you make a great exit off 7, look up the track and see open track all the way into 1 (can you say hot lap), then this car files out of the pits and while not even checking his/her mirrors sticks it into 1 forcing you to jump all over the brakes or modify your line to avoid contact.

It's kind of like when your driving down the highway and some jerk pulls out right in front of you... After catching your breath you look in the mirror and see NO ONE BEHIND YOU. Whats the rush? It's not going to be your fastest lap but it could be his/hers.

note to Collin..... Brake eariler into 6, slow in fast out. I nail that corner in the Wrecker :takecover:

Wow I didn't watch the video until the end last time, but that exit from pit row was close! I bet both of you and the other driver were like this::bugeye:

Collin, what have you done to your car? Or is it completely stock? Reason I ask is because you just powered right past another E36 M3 like it was standing still. You sure were passing a lot of cars in your video! Very impressive!

[Mark Hirt]

Do you have a car hooked up when you do that? :grinno:

Now there's an idea....how about a corner worker race with the tow trucks? Has this ever been done? I bet somewhere in Europe it's been done already....they may even have a series :grinno:

No Phil I offer damage free towing, in other words I will not damage a car more than it already is. That is NOT true for many that do what I do.

As for the worker race... Sorry to say most would not do very well but a very long time ago there was a BHF track manager that did a pretty fast lap in an ambulance. low 30's, high 20's if I remember correctly. The wrecker fleet has always been limited by defective steering components. The yellow long boom shakes violently at what feels like 50 (the top of third gear, spedo has never worked). The Yellow short boom does not shake but just does not want to turn. The roll back has a strong motor but still is a roll back. I like the Blue one, the boom is long and the radio & heater work, well you only get heat on high.

[MPIGP - Phillip Gordon]

yeah, i definately need to increase my corner entry speeds.

Actually I think Mark meant DEcrease your entry speed. That would help you to get the car turned in better and hit your apex (get closer to the inside of the turn) and that would allow you to get on the throttle sooner.

The mods you did to your car seems to be working great. It pulls pretty strong.

[Rick]

Just got back from Blackhawk with both my car and myself in the same condition as when we got there. It was a very cool track. I thought it is a little narrow in some places. The track is really hard on brakes!

A lot of cars went off in turn 3. I was the 3rd car in a 4 car train. The driver of the first car refused to give a point by. He tried to go faster and spun in front of the train in turn 3. The 2nd car avoided him and went off to driver's left. I braked, the 4th car went by me on the right side and just missed the spun car. After that, the 4th car was in front and I was behind. We were the only 2 that made it out of that incident. On the very next lap, he spun in the exact same corner. :confused:

I got to meet Hornswoggler in person. I invited him and a few of the other Lotus Corp members to go karting with us sometime.

[Hornswoggler]

Yeah, great time!

Nice to meet you Rick, you were moving along pretty good out there! I'm sure we'll meet again at a future event. I'll keep my eyes open for any karting gtg's... i'm not that good at them but they sure are fun. Even slow karts are OK with me, lol.

I had a best lap of 1:23.250 today at BHF. Yesterday I ran a 1:41.300 on autobahn south course. Both felt like really good runs.

[Rick]

Too bad we didn't have more time to talk. I wanted to check out the TraqMate. I hope you post some the results of today's analysis!

[Hornswoggler]

yeah, absolutely. If I do any write-ups, I'll be sure and cross-post.

THis might be a great topic for a new thread, or there might be one on data acq already, but you were mentioning going with the AIM system. Last time I priced one out, which didn't need a track side beacon (sometimes I run with BMW CCA or other marquee clubs that don't allow transponders), the AIM system was like, $2,400 vs the traqmates $900. Just curious what that extra $1,500 buys you and what features justify that price difference (unless you are just a baller, haha). Good stuff, we should get a thread going on it. Have to run to work now. :(

[Adam Andrea]

Anyone see my dad there in the white '72 911? He was doing some instructing.

[Rick]

Anyone see my dad there in the white '72 911? He was doing some instructing.

I think so. Was he driving an old Carrera GT RS?

[Adam Andrea]

It's not an RS, but it has the black Carrera sticker on the bottom of the doors.

[Rick]

yeah, absolutely. If I do any write-ups, I'll be sure and cross-post.

THis might be a great topic for a new thread, or there might be one on data acq already, but you were mentioning going with the AIM system. Last time I priced one out, which didn't need a track side beacon (sometimes I run with BMW CCA or other marquee clubs that don't allow transponders), the AIM system was like, $2,400 vs the traqmates $900. Just curious what that extra $1,500 buys you and what features justify that price difference (unless you are just a baller, haha). Good stuff, we should get a thread going on it. Have to run to work now. :(

I think one of the main differences is precision and resolution. Also, this way I really only have to learn one application for both karts and cars.

[Rick]

Don't go off in 1 (the trees are in another state)

Check

Don't go in the swamp drivers right at and just after 5Check

Don't go in the swamp between 5 and 6Check

Turn right at 7Check

Mission accomplished.

[Hornswoggler]

Some pics:

http://flickr.com/photos/symmetricalism/sets/72157600241862004/
http://www.lotuscorps.org/gallery/Blackhawk2007AP?page=1