I don't want this to say "never" anymore

[CIR-Reed]

What is the average life in hours or miles or however you keep track for a 2 cycle engine? I am assuming it is much different depending on what the engine is being asked to do, as in shifters probably don't last as long as tags.

[rct25]

Parilla Leopard: 25 hours top end and 50 hours bottom.

Roberto

[MPIGP - Phillip Gordon]

What is the average life in hours or miles or however you keep track for a 2 cycle engine? I am assuming it is much different depending on what the engine is being asked to do, as in shifters probably don't last as long as tags.

Reed

The higher the rpms and compression, usually the higher the maintenance. A rotary valve ICA motor spinning at 22,000 rpms needs a rebuild after every race weekend. A stock CR125 shifter, (low compression) will run 3 to 5 years without a rebuild. Most people think shifters are high maintenance because they are usually highly modified such as a Swedetech or Woltjer motor. They usually need a new ring after 30 mins and a piston after a couple hours of racing.

IMHO....best 2 cycle motors for longevity: 100cc - HPV; Single speed 125 - Rotax FR125; 2 speed 125 - Rotax DD2; 6 speed 125 - stock Honda CR125

Phil

[CIR-Reed]

So if my dad and I wanted to get a shifter kart to goof around with at Autobahn what kind of engine maintenance should we expect? I know enough now about chassis maintenance and tuning to get myself on track the engines I need to learn a lot more about.

[MPIGP - Phillip Gordon]

So if my dad and I wanted to get a shifter kart to goof around with at Autobahn what kind of engine maintenance should we expect? I know enough now about chassis maintenance and tuning to get myself on track the engines I need to learn a lot more about.

If you're looking to get a shifter just to do lapping, the Honda CR125 is the way to go. Leave it completely stock and you will be able to run 3 or 4 years before you need any motor work. Keep the chain lubed with a good high performance lube such as Motul and the only thing you'll have to do to the kart other than routine maintenance, is add fuel and change tires.

If you want the convenience of an electric starter, TM makes an ICC motor with an Electric starter. You should be able to get a couple years on that motor before you need a rebuild. Both motors will perform well in a wide range of weather conditions without messing with the jetting.

[CIR-Reed]

I have tons more questions and a lot to learn about karting. Here are a few to start:

1. Do people use the Rotax 125 for shifters?
2. Is it even feasible for a guy my size to comfortably and safely pilot a shifter kart?
3. How fast will it go through tires?
4. Is it possible to purchase a shifter setup that I can drive all day and then lube the chain, clean the kart, replace tires/brakes, if necessary and go home?
5. What compound tire would be feasible for this application? How long would they last?
6. How long do brakes last?


I would prefer to run a Birel/Rotax combo if possible. If that combination can be had in a reliable form it would work best because that is what the whole junior team is running.

The kart would not be intended for racing. It would be exactly as you said, a track day vehicle.

[MPIGP - Phillip Gordon]

I have tons more questions and a lot to learn about karting. Here are a few to start:

1. Do people use the Rotax 125 for shifters?
2. Is it even feasible for a guy my size to comfortably and safely pilot a shifter kart?
3. How fast will it go through tires?
4. Is it possible to purchase a shifter setup that I can drive all day and then lube the chain, clean the kart, replace tires/brakes, if necessary and go home?
5. What compound tire would be feasible for this application? How long would they last?
6. How long do brakes last?


I would prefer to run a Birel/Rotax combo if possible. If that combination can be had in a reliable form it would work best because that is what the whole junior team is running.

The kart would not be intended for racing. It would be exactly as you said, a track day vehicle.

I'll try to answer your questions the best I can.

1) Rotax doesn't currently make a 6 speed shifter and it's not like a car, you can't just bolt a gearbox to a FR125. The only 'shifter' option you have with Rotax is the 2 speed DD2.

2) Yes it is feasible for you to fit in and pilot a shifter. To get the best fit I would recommend an extended porch chassis. Due to the fact that the chassis are designed to have the seat in a certain position relative to the chassis, taller drivers that push the seat too far back for a more comfortable fit, will throw off the handling. The extended porch will give you the leg room without compromising handling.

3) Tire wear depends on several things, compound, chassis setup, track conditions, driving style etc. MG makes a few different compounds that will give you a good balance of grip and longevity. You will get anywhere from 200 to 300 laps on a 1 mile track with the right setup and compound choice.

4) Yes....there is a chain lube that the road race superbikes use that will do just that...it's pretty pricey ($35 for a small can) but well worth it.

5) Cold weather...MG yellows...mid summer....MG blues or reds will give you the 200 to 300 laps as I mentioned before.

6) Brake wear is an individual thing. I have run two seasons on the same pads and I have seen other drivers wear out their brakes in one day. Obviously they must be dragging the brakes without realizing it. For just lapping and not too much racing, using them right you should get 2 to 3 seasons out of a set. A season equates to 12 to 14 races for me and about 15 practice days.

Running the same chassis is a good idea for sharing spare parts. You will have to decide which direction to go with the motor, 2 speed, 6 speed Honda or TM ICC.

Hope this helps. Let me know if you have any more questions.

[peterjank]

Hi Reed,

With regard to point #2, my brother Paul enjoys driving shifters. All it takes is getting the right size seat.

[CIR-Reed]

Thank you for being so helpful gentleman.

I think I will investigate the extended porch option as well as the ICC electic start engine. I definitely want the 6 speed gear box.

I am sure I will have lots more questions. I will keep asking as I think of them.

Thanks again guys.

[CIR-Reed]

The more reading I do the more people seem to agree with Phil. The stock Honda cr125 is the way to go. My dad was pretty pumped about the push button start idea. It looks as though you can only get that on an ICC engine. Reading about ICC engines it sounds as though they are much higher maintenance than the stock Honda. I guess we will have to learn how to start the thing by ourselves.

It also sounds as though there are plenty of 240 plus pound guys driving shifter karts. Maybe Paul and I should start an ultra heavy weight class! That would be super fun!

[MPIGP - Phillip Gordon]

The more reading I do the more people seem to agree with Phil. The stock Honda cr125 is the way to go. My dad was pretty pumped about the push button start idea. It looks as though you can only get that on an ICC engine. Reading about ICC engines it sounds as though they are much higher maintenance than the stock Honda. I guess we will have to learn how to start the thing by ourselves.

It also sounds as though there are plenty of 240 plus pound guys driving shifter karts. Maybe Paul and I should start an ultra heavy weight class! That would be super fun!



There is a lot of myths out there about the ICC. Fact is, it is a very durable motor....in STOCK trim. The problem is, most ICC's are not stock and once you start messing with them they become time bombs. The engine tuners run them on the ragged edge and due to the high rpms that they turn, if the jetting is just slightly off, they will grenade. On the other hand, if you leave them stock, you most likely will be able to run the same jetting all year unless you get a really cold Spring or Fall day, then you may have to go up or run the risk of seizing the motor. I have one customer that runs a TM ICC and I didn't change his jetting all year.

Also, keep in mind the electric start ICC is a detuned K9 motor.....lower compression and rpms governed by a rev limiter. They make the same hp as a stock honda and the power comes on a lot smoother. If your Dad likes the push button start, I would go with the ICC. I believe you'll be happy with. Figure on about $250/yr more maintenance over 4 years than the stock honda. I am basing that on the rebuild intervals of both motors and the higher cost per rebuild for the ICC. In four years you will probably do 2 rebuilds on the ICC @ $750/ea = $1500. The Honda 1 @ $500. I subtracted the $500 from $1500 and divided by 4, $1500-$500/4= $250.

[CIR-Reed]

What does the push push button start k9 cost? It looks as though the honda's are around $2k. I would much prefer the push button start but it looks as though the cost is nearly double and at that price point it isn't worth it to me.

[MPIGP - Phillip Gordon]

What does the push push button start k9 cost? It looks as though the honda's are around $2k. I would much prefer the push button start but it looks as though the cost is nearly double and at that price point it isn't worth it to me.

The Honda is around $2200 but comes ala carte. You have to buy the carb (optional pump around), pipe, muffler and motor mount. When it's all said and done, it'll cost around $3000 depending on the brand names you choose. The Electric Start K9 is around $4300 but comes complete.

[CIR-Reed]

That makes it sound more appealing then. I love the idea of showing up in the morning, rolling the kart out of the garage, jumping in it, starting it up, and having fun. Bob made it sound like it isn't that difficult to start by hand but the push button would be nice. Do you have a link to a website with the specs for that engine?

So many decisions to make!

[Rick]

http://www.tmracing.it/

http://www.kgbusa.com/New%20IK%20Site-By%20Melissa&Curtis/Engines-Page%207.htm

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=xfe&q=TM+K9+kart+engine+TAG&btnG=Search

[MPIGP - Phillip Gordon]

http://www.tmracing.it/

http://www.kgbusa.com/New%20IK%20Site-By%20Melissa&Curtis/Engines-Page%207.htm

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=xfe&q=TM+K9+kart+engine+TAG&btnG=Search

Thanks Rick....also check out www.italianmotors.com (http://www.italianmotors.com) click on engines then TM then TAG ICC then specifications. They have the motor listed for $4395.00 If you decide you want to go that route I can order it for you and save you a few bucks.