View Full Version : Spec Honda Build
:grinyes: just waiting for the exhaust, engine mount and other accessories.
avmaviator
03-08-2010, 05:55 PM
:grinyes: just waiting for the exhaust, engine mount and other accessories.
We need pictures!
Jeff Salak
03-08-2010, 09:26 PM
Ya, lets see some pictures. May have missed it. Where did you get engine from? How much?
Isnt it called Stock Honda?
Jeff
http://chicagoracers.com/images/SpecHondaEngine1.png
http://chicagoracers.com/images/SpecHondaEngine2.png
http://chicagoracers.com/images/SpecHondaEngine3.png
Where did you get engine from? How much?
I shopped around all over and Swedetech wanted $5300 for the same stuff I got. Average prices were around $4700 for absolutely everything you need (radiator, mounts, drive gears, axle gears, clutch cable, assembly, blended power valve plugs, exhaust pipe, silencer, pump-around-carb, 2 fuel pumps, carb, etc).
I ended up buying from Extreme Motorsports (http://www.extremegokarts.com). He was the most straight forward and also had the best price. His price was basically equivalent to me buying everything and assembling it myself. He gave me a really good deal, so I can't give out his price. If you have a calculator, you can easily figure it out. Another option would be to just buy a kit from a Honda dealer and put it together yourself. Here's a really good how to on how to do that: http://metal-matrix.com/s/ The author claims you can put one together for as cheap as $975 but that doesn't include radiator and other accessories. But that's still a great price.
Also, there's really not much you can do to a Spec Honda engine in terms of "blue printing". I basically plan on doing almost all maintenance and work myself from now on. Parts (pistons, cranks, etc) are also cheaper and more widely available than IAME or Rotax parts. The only downside is that there isn't a large following in the midwest at this time. It is one of the most popular classes in California and my new home track (http://www.lakc.org/content/results/0110_Race.pdf) (Calspeedway).
Isnt it called Stock Honda?I've seen people call it Stock Moto, Stock Honda, and Spec Honda. According to the SKUSA rule book (http://www.superkartsusa.com/dmdocuments/2010-2011-SKUSA-RuleBook.pdf), it is Spec Honda and the classes it runs in are S5,S4,S3,S2 and S1.
I went to the motorcycle shop today and they ordered me a custom clutch cable from MotionPro according to my specs. I basically ordered one that was 18" longer and had 18" of exposed cable (so I can trim it down to right size).
The OEM clutch cable setup is unbelievably primitive. I can't believe people drive with that stuff.
avmaviator
03-24-2010, 08:23 PM
The OEM clutch cable setup is unbelievably primitive. I can't believe people drive with that stuff.
That's because you don't need a clutch :) There are some nice mods for dirtbikes you can do in regards to clutch clables/levers.
Hornswoggler
03-25-2010, 05:24 PM
How often do these need rebuilt?
I've been told the bottom end can go 2 seasons. The top end should be done every 4 races. But I've heard people go a whole season on 1 top end.
avmaviator
03-26-2010, 11:31 AM
The top end should be done every 4 races. But I've heard people go a whole season on 1 top end.
AND the top end only cost, 60-70 bucks ish :) :clap:
JET Karting - Andy Finke
03-26-2010, 03:04 PM
You have to love chrome cylinders, don't you. This is part of the Rotax charm as well. High volume production doesn't hurt either.
Can't wait to see it out here. We won't be able to see both sides of the grin with your helmet on, it will be that big!
Andy
Wow, didn't realize they were that cheap! A connecting rod for a Leopard is $300. :bugeye:
avmaviator
03-26-2010, 04:34 PM
Wow, didn't realize they were that cheap! A connecting rod for a Leopard is $300. :bugeye:
A lower end on a moto, crank and rod, is 180 ish, woot!
Here are the steps I took so far (in the order listed):
1. Completely stripped down kart to bare chassis.
2. Installed rear axle and cassette bearings.
3. Installed front brakes.
4. Installed rear brake.
5. Bolted engine to engine mount.
6. Installed rear 428 sprocket.
7. Installed chain and set engine position.
8. Bolted on Radiator to mock up position for mounting seat
9. Put on side pods to position everything for mounting seat
10. Bent seat frame struts to perfectly match up with seat width and position
11. Mocked up seat position
12. Bent shift linkage to match contour of seat and tested fit and clearance
13. Cut shift linkage to match length from J-arm to shifter lever
14. Retapped hole for heim joint on shift linkage
15. Installed shift linkage
16. Installed seat
17. Tested shifter assembly
18. Installed clutch cable
19. Installed fuel pump to seat
20. Routed fuel lines
21. Installed exhaust brackets and fit exhaust
22. Installed exhaust
23. Routed radiator hoses
24. Installed seat struts
25. Installed throttle cable
26. Installed CR125 ECU unit
27. Installed Spark Plug
28. Hooked up all the radiator hoses and set final position of radiator
Next, I plan on putting in the transmission fluid, perhaps testing whether or not the engine runs, installing the final body work and decals. Then I will tackle installing all the data acquisition stuff.
I still need to take the exhaust to someone to weld in the EGT sensor. And I will probably get a water temp sensor.
Note: Pictures taking with iPhone and taken at step 22. I'll add more pictures later.
http://www.chicagoracers.com/images/SpecHondaBuild_1.png
http://www.chicagoracers.com/images/SpecHondaBuild_2.png
http://www.chicagoracers.com/images/SpecHondaBuild_3.png
avmaviator
03-27-2010, 10:19 AM
Oh man that is nice! That chain looks great. Nothing like a brand new, fresh set up!
JET Karting - Andy Finke
03-27-2010, 10:36 AM
Looks great. New karts are always fun to build.
You may consider mounting the coil on the side of the seat, to insulate it from the engine vibration. There's a lot of it, and coils don't always like it. If you do, make sure you run a ground back to the engine, or maybe two, as not having one will eventually kill the coil too.
Your builder has likely told you this too, but just in case, make sure you have a big opening for the fuel tank vent. The pump-around system pressurises the tank. It will fill up a catch tank quickly when the fuel tank is full and fuel is close to the vent line. That was one of the issues I learned on the first outing with mine...
Busy little things, aren't they?
Andy
So Rick, how much did this baby end up costing you to put together? Just wondering because sharkshifter.com sells an entire '99 spec moto package for $3,600. Not sure if it's worth mentioning now seeing as you already paid for yours and the fact that you may've paid more might piss you off (Soon after reading the post . . . :bugeye: . . . :shooting_smilie2: )
avmaviator
03-27-2010, 09:27 PM
So Rick, how much did this baby end up costing you to put together? Just wondering because sharkshifter.com sells an entire '99 spec moto package for $3,600. Not sure if it's worth mentioning now seeing as you already paid for yours and the fact that you may've paid more might piss you off (Soon after reading the post . . . :bugeye: . . . :shooting_smilie2: )
Where did you see that? I don't see it on their site.
EDIT: Nevermind, I see it. You meant, they are selling an entire engine package, not the whole stock moto with a chassis, cause if that was the case I would have bought one on the spot! haha.
Nevermind, I see it. You meant, they are selling an entire engine package, not the whole stock moto with a chassis, cause if that was the case I would have bought one on the spot! haha.
Hahaa yeah. I don't think ANYONE would pass that up.
$3600 is a great price! But I got the pump around carb + dual fuel pump + radiator + 3 drive sockets + 3 rear axle sprockets + all the jets and needles + champion radiator + radiator mount + all hoses and fixtures to mount radiator, blended pvp, etc, etc. Basically _everything_ you need.
Getting ready for the break in this Friday! :thumbsup:
Getting ready for the break in this Friday! :thumbsup:
Rick trust me, if my hip wasn't broken I would be there flying by you in the DD2. I'm gonna come out Sunday though if the karts are ready seeing as I never obey the doctor's orders so if you wanna learn how to safely move out of the way when getting passed then come on out :rofl:
Rick trust me, if my hip wasn't broken I would be there flying by you in the DD2. I'm gonna come out Sunday though if the karts are ready seeing as I never obey the doctor's orders so if you wanna learn how to safely move out of the way when getting passed then come on out :rofl:
Bring it! :kungfu::thumbsup:
What kind of chassis do you have?
Well, I finally got it started today after a lot of issues and trial and error. Thanks to Ryan, Arno, Les and Andy for helping out!
There were tons of fueling issues and trial and error. We finally got it working and I got one break in session in.
It is really physical to drive. Way more so than TAG even. Even at the same pace (48 second laps).
I'll definitely have to spend time setting up the chassis and learning how to drive the thing.
Even jetted rich for break in, and short shifting and cruising around, it would break free anywhere, anytime. It almost drifted the entire monza turn. It was pretty fun. I highly recommend it.
LikeStig
04-03-2010, 01:18 AM
The results of all this work ladies and gentlemen? Instantaneous wheel spin, where ever you please. :bugeye:
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb312/kyleprokup/IMG_6039.jpg
Bring it! :kungfu::thumbsup:
What kind of chassis do you have?
YOU ASKED FOR IT!!! :shooting_smilie2: :thumbsup:
Chassiswise . . .
KPV - SKM (Now Intrepid)
Rotax Sr. Max - Birel M32
Rotax DD2 - CRG Dark Rider
Azzurro Kart
04-03-2010, 03:55 PM
Looks good Rick, Trent and I look forward to come out and rough you up with the 4's. Are youu going to run the Summer Nationals?
Michael
avmaviator
04-04-2010, 01:59 PM
The results of all this work ladies and gentlemen? Instantaneous wheel spin, where ever you please. :bugeye:
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb312/kyleprokup/IMG_6039.jpg
Nice steeering wheel angle. You're ready for the next Fast and Furious movie, Chicago Drift ;-)
:redface: Yeah definitely broke it free a lot of times! I made some chassis changes which I think will help and I think need to change the gearing as well.
Put decals on, finished installing the data acquisition (e-box and sensors - but still need to install EGT sensor). Installed transponder holder. Installed fancy freeline rear bumper.
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs385.snc3/23563_1349949303735_1081412548_1059245_7882884_n.j pg
http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs385.snc3/23563_1349949343736_1081412548_1059246_2110401_n.j pg
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs385.snc3/23563_1349949383737_1081412548_1059247_3982044_n.j pg
avmaviator
04-05-2010, 08:45 AM
Looks awesome Rick!!
Thanks Arno!
Also figured an easy way to start the Spec Honda engine (actually did it on accident with Arno). Just put it in 6th gear and spin the rear axle slowly a couple of times to fill the case with fuel and then just spin it. It usually starts within 3 turns.
A nice article on Spec Honda by NKN: http://www.nkn.com/articles/StockHonda0808.pdf
avmaviator
04-08-2010, 07:50 PM
A nice article on Spec Honda by NKN: http://www.nkn.com/articles/StockHonda0808.pdf
Great article, gets me more and more excited! :):clap:
Well, I raced it for the first time this last Saturday. I ran against 2 ICC (TM engines, I believe) at Norway. I think my gearing ratio was too high (14/24). I was hitting 6th 1/2 to 3/4 the way down the back straight. And 15/24 seemed too low of a ratio. So I will try 14/25 next.
I was about 5/10ths (46.252) off the pace in the 2nd heat race and 1 second (46.606) off the pace in the final race. I'm not sure what the power differential there is between ICC and Spec Honda but it did seem like the ICCs pulled better on the high end. The Spec Honda pulled really good down in the lower ranges.
The water temperature was also high. It was 200+ degrees for all races. I think the thermostat might be a little too restrictive.
avmaviator
04-12-2010, 10:37 AM
That's awesome Rick, very well done for your first race in shifters! Those brothers are good drivers and have a good amount of seat time.
The ICCs are top end engines, they don't have as much down low but their top ends have more power and revs then the Hondas. The Honda has an advantage down low like you mentioned.
Don't know about the gearing, but one thing I do know from dirt biking is that changing the driver has twice or three times the effect per tooth then the rear sprockets.
But I guess that is also true for TAGs and such.
You should hook up your Gopro for the next race/drive!
Hornswoggler
04-12-2010, 10:37 AM
Sounds like fun!
Any local competition, or just getting experience with it before heading to CA?
What do you see as the pros/cons vs TAG? Is it more power? Cheaper rebuilds? Does it rattle your brain? :thumbsup: Do you need an external starter? Sorry for the newb questions. ;)
the pics look great!
avmaviator
04-12-2010, 10:40 AM
What do you see as the pros/cons vs TAG? Is it more power? Cheaper rebuilds? Does it rattle your brain? :thumbsup: Do you need an external starter? Sorry for the newb questions. ;)
the pics look great!
All the above! :-)
No external starter. You mostly started them by hand by spinning the axle (by hand or warp a rope around the tire and pull) or, you can push it on the ground by yourself, jump in and kick it in gearing (bump starting). Don't need starters anymore, yay.
As far as vibrations.. well it is a two stroke :-) Rick will be a good source for that answer.
Sounds like fun!
It's a blast.
Any local competition, or just getting experience with it before heading to CA?Unfortunately, there isn't that much local competition in the midwest. At the track that I'll be racing at in LA, there are usually 20+ entries per race day.
What do you see as the pros/cons vs TAG? Is it more power? Cheaper rebuilds? Does it rattle your brain? :thumbsup: Do you need an external starter? Sorry for the newb questions. ;)
the pics look great!Power is around 35hp. Tag is around 28-31hp. But I think the main difference is that with 6 gears, it's always in the power band. So it should be much faster.
Rebuilds are definitely cheaper. But initial costs for completely new equipment is higher. If you were patient and built your own from parts, you could do for about the same cost as a tag engine.
avmaviator
04-13-2010, 10:08 AM
But initial costs for completely new equipment is higher. If you were patient and built your own from parts, you could do for about the same cost as a tag engine.
True, but when you have to spend 600-800 bucks rebuilding your tag a year you make that up really quick!
Average moto package is around 3200-4000 all said and done (new) depending on where you get it. Leopard is what? 2500 ish new? So in two rebuilds you have reached the moto price, and you could easily rebuild it twice in one year... Plus, if stuff breaks, it will be a whole lot more expensive to fix then a moto, Rick and Ryan can attest to that :):shooting_smilie2:
Yes, on paper, it would definitely seem the Spec Honda will be cheaper. However, I thought the same thing about TAG. I will have to see what the reality of racing one is like.
But assuming equivalent top and bottom end rebuilds per season, the price for parts for a CR125 are cheaper than the corresponding parts for a TAG engine.
One thing I did forget to mention though was how physical it was to drive. I'm pretty confident I can drive a TAG kart for 100 laps by myself. But I seriously thought about pulling in during the final 12 lap race of the shifter race. And this is after I did P90X for 90 days to prepare for physically. It is much more physical than TAG.
avmaviator
04-13-2010, 10:38 AM
That's true.
Maybe you should set up to the "Insanity" program :)
How are they more physical you think? Just moving around more for the shifting and such or just more forces on the driver?
After 4 races and about 6 practice days (~8 hours), I took off the head and looked inside. The piston, ring and cylinder look good. There is carbon build up on the piston. But that's because I've been running it rich. So far it's looking good. I hope it holds up. Knowing my luck, it will blow up next time I fire it up.
I did order an extra top end for $90 just to have laying around in case. I'll let you guys know when I do a top end.
So far everything has worked just fine. It has been relatively low maintenance. And ironically, it has started more reliably than either my Rotax and or Leopard. It just doesn't idle as well yet.
I've been running the 170 main jet all this time and it's worked out fine. I don't know if I'll ever get it running good enough to keep up with the ICCs, but I'm happy with the performance so far. Just need to learn how to drive the thing.
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