Love tap

[MPIGP - Phillip Gordon]

Is there a place for bumping in karting? Is it ok in indoor but not in outdoor karting? What do you guys think?

[rct25]

Phil;

Depends on what part of the world you are talking about.
About three years ago, the crew from National Karting News raced in the Granja Viana 500 (the Brazilian race).

For those of you that remember this article, correct me if I am wrong. They were amazed of how aggressive the Brazilian karters were driving.
Remember the pictures of that race? Remember the bodyworks of the karts?
Do you think Brazilians know how to drive?

Here is an interview with Kazeem Manzur , the junior driver for the official Zanardi Kart Team for 2006:

Also the karting tends to be much more aggressive because officials (unlike in the UK where karting officials tend to be over zealous) rarely penalise poor driving standards and almost never exclude a driver from a race because of reckless driving. This unfortunately means that unlike karting in the UK defending your position in the last few laps is something that drivers in Europe rarely do. They know it is a recipe for the driver behind to try a reckless move and possibly take you out without fear of being penalised

Here is the link to the full interview:

http://www.karting1.co.uk/kazeem-manzur-karting.htm

Do you think this kid knows how to drive a kart?
Do you have a doubt that Europe (Italy) has the highest level of karting in the world?

I think it all depends of where you are racing.


Roberto

[Greg Shebert]

This is a tough call.

When you look at the highest levels of motorsport there are both sides. Take NASCAR (ok, maybe not such a high level, but whatever) - bumping is clearly a part of the sport! And this may hold true somewhat for other non-open-wheel series.

But - in open wheel series - bumping is clearly detrimental - you lose tires, wings, get airborne, whatever. It doesn't help your race whatsoever.

In outdoor karting there are some provisions for some bumping when you look at how the bodywork is laid out. But, you can still go wheel to wheel with another kart and find yourself airborne.

Indoor there is even more protection on the kart against bumping but this isn't so much to encourage this behavior as it is to protect the kart itself against damage (saving the facility owners a lot of money in kart repair).

So, I guess overall, I'd say bumping doesn't really have a place in karting.

That being said - I personally don't mind a little bumping as long as it isn't used grossly to effect a pass. I don't block (anymore) and if you are quicker, you'll find a way around without bumping. We do make mistakes though and I can tolerate such a thing once in a while.

-G

[Rick]

Personally, I think it's dirty and a driver only uses it because he lacks skill, patience and racecraft to pull off a clean pass. A perfect example of this is Dave Mickelson. He is not the fastest driver (although he is close) but he still consistently finds a way to pass cleanly and win. Peter J also has very good race craft and passing skills. We all race together and we all see each other all the time. For me it's not about whether or not I'm holding the trophy at the end. Respect and reputation are far more important in my opinion. Just think about it this way... What would happen if Dave Mickleson just started punting everyone from the get go in turn 1? What if he started bump passing everyone? Would it matter that he wins all the time? Would he be respected as he is right now? :dunno: Do you really want to be the guy who everyone thinks is an ass and bumped passed everyone just to win a trophy?

Prior to the start of the CIR league, my policy was to always avoid any contact if possible even if it meant going slower and maybe even losing a position. I've always had a policy of retaliation in extreme cases of bumping. When I think that a retaliation is necessary, I will do it with an obvious manner to get the message across. I've only retaliated twice at CIR (and the track guys definitely knew about these two incidents :lol1: ). From now on, I have a new policy. Anyone who continues to make contact with me, I will do the same in return :glare: . I will continue to avoid any contact with anyone who does not initiate it with me (on a continuing basis). B) Basically, I'm racing at CIR to improve my skill and not to be the ass who bumps everyone out of the way so I can win at all costs. Unfortunately, I think that there are some who think they are already the best and don't need any improvement in skill and have to win at all costs to prove it.

The outdoor karting is a whole different ball game. The consequences of contact can be severe to your health and your wallet. I will continue to try to avoid all contact if possible. And I will certainly not initiate contact to gain any kind of an advantage. That's simply dirty an irresponsible. I'm glad that I will be racing with Martin, Peter and Dave next year because I know they are clean drivers.

I also think Roberto is right that it has to do with where you are racing. I would go further and specify that it is who is officiating the race that matters the most. If the officials fail or refuse to penalize certain behaviour, then more and more people will do it. Peter and I saw this first hand at the IKWC. There was one race where NOTHING was called and you feel the contact get harder and harder. Eventually karts were flying over the barriers and wheels were coming off. It was very much like a NASCAR race. After that, they basically went to a no warning and black flag for any contact rule. Guess what happened? The racing was clean as a whistle. The guy with the black flag has the most power and control over how much contact happens in a race.

[rct25]

Is there a place for bumping in karting? Is it ok in indoor but not in outdoor karting? What do you guys think?

I think the question is bumping in karting; not if we like it or not.
I went to the WKA Manufacturers Cup in South Bend,IN this summer; you should see junior drivers at this level :blink:

For those of you who can remember the first leagues at CIR; rememer Brian and Bob Zirves, Dave Yourd (one of the best drivers at CIR) Will Johnston, Jonathan Vieira and Dan Cyr they are all aggressive drivers, yes, but also GREAT drivers.



Roberto

[MPIGP - Phillip Gordon]

[Do you think this kid knows how to drive a kart?]

Do you think it takes more skill to bump pass? or pass cleanly?

[Do you have a doubt that Europe (Italy) has the highest level of karting in the world?]

I don't doubt that....maybe that's why the driving is so agressive? There is so much importance on winning, it creates a win at all costs mentality.

So to my question, is there a place for it? Is it ok if it doesn't result in an accident? Is it justifiably at all? What if a driver is definitely slower and he/she is running a defensive/blocking line....do you suck it up and take 2nd place or do you 'create' a passing lane.

[Rick]

Do you think it takes more skill to bump pass? or pass cleanly?

It also takes a lot more skill, racecraft and honor to restrain yourself from bump passing and pass cleanly. Almost everyone is fast enough that they can basically bump pass anyone else at CIR. Just don't hit the brakes and the person in front of you will end up in the wall as you go by. Anyone can do it. It takes much more skill to pass cleanly. Imagine if every driver racing in the CIR leagues started to attempt bump passes. Just think about what the racing would be like.

So to my question, is there a place for it? Is it ok if it doesn't result in an accident? Is it justifiably at all? What if a driver is definitely slower and he/she is running a defensive/blocking line....do you suck it up and take 2nd place or do you 'create' a passing lane.

How about the option of finding a clean way past him by setting him up?

Depends on following things:

1. Are the officials going to call it?
2. Has the person in front of you bump passed you? If yes, then go for it and make it count.
3. You've had all weekend (qualifying, etc.) to be in front. Why aren't you? Is this just some freak accident that you're now faster?
4. Are you honorable? Can you live with winning by doing that?

[rct25]

"Imagine if every driver racing in the CIR leagues started to attempt bump passes"

Rick,

I think we should remember that we are talking about karting in general not specifically about CIR.
Also, where is the people that raced the first leagues at CIR? Remember those leagues.

Roberto

[Rick]

Originally posted by rct25@Nov 1 2006, 06:28 PM
"Imagine if every driver racing in the CIR leagues started to attempt bump passes"

Rick,

I think we should remember that we are talking about karting in general not specifically about CIR.
Also, where is the people that raced the first leagues at CIR? Remember those leagues.

Roberto
2417


Roberto, I think almost everything we are talking about can be applied directly to CIR, indoor karting, or outdoor karting. I'm just putting it a context that most people here will understand.

Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on how you look at it), I never participated in the early CIR leagues. So I don't remember them at all.

It seems like you are saying that bumping is ok. I have no problem with that. If everyone here and CIR agrees, then let it be. It's not like I can't turn on that switch. I'm sure Dave, Martin and Peter can all turn on that switch as well. I can come up with some rather effective bump passes. But if we going to do it, let's all do it and call it fair. I don't like it when it's not considered fair and there are those few who are doing it to gain some kind of advantage while the rest of us are trying to be clean. If CIR starts to allow bumping, I would prepare for some real injuries and a lot of fist fights afterwards (there was almost one last time). Might as well throw out the driving while drunk rule too! :D And while we're at it, let's take out all the turns and just make a big oval! :yes:


Another analogy:

There are a lot of people trying to steal or con my money away from me. Should I start trying to steal or con everyone elses money too? I want to be wealthy and support my family just as bad as the drug dealer on the corner. Where does the line stop? When does your personal honor start to count for something? Just like bumping, it's a personal choice that everyone makes. Either you are the type of person who does go out and try to steal from people because everyone is trying to steal from you. Or you are the type of person who choses not to steal. Asking whether or not there is a place for theft in the world is irrelevant. There will always be those who do it. It's a matter or principles not a question if it exists.

[MPIGP - Phillip Gordon]

[It also takes a lot more skill, racecraft and honor to restrain yourself from bump passing and pass cleanly.]

What if you got spun out early in the race, it's the last lap so you're out of time, are you saying you wouldn't go for the pass if it meant contact? You would settle for second? Do you think your peers would admire you as having more skill/ racecraft and that you did an honorable thing?

[Almost everyone is fast enough that they can basically bump pass anyone else at CIR.]


You make it sound easy Rick. I am not familiar with all the guys that work at CIR now, but in the beginning there were a few guys that could keep you behind them for an entire race. Tony Stewart is the king of making his kart 8' wide. If you ever get the chance to race with him sometime, you should. Don't they have an employee vs customer race? You should try to get Tony to race in that.

Speaking of indoor karting now, with limited acceleration, grip, small speed differences and narrow track width, don't you think some bumping should be allowed?

So far everything about bumping has been negative but in indoor and outdoor karting, many times especially on a start, bumping the kart in front of you attempting a pass can help the guy doing the bumping to make the pass too. Is this ok?

[Rick]

It also takes a lot more honor to restrain yourself from bump passing.

Because it is. I am confident that ANYONE we race with in the current CIR league can do it to ANYONE else. And when I do it, I make it count. Zach Ply was pounding on the back of my kart for the whole race. He was getting me loose in every turn. Finally he went by. I just regained my composure and started to gain on him. Finally when I was close enough, I waited until we reached the hair pin (going counter clockwise) and I kept the accelerator down. He was making his turn and the left side of his kart was faced towards me. As I closed in I threw all my weight forward (just to gain that extra bit of love :nodder: ) and gave him a love tap he would never forget. He spun 180 and went under the barrier as I continued on my merry way. I got black flagged for that one. :D Not every bump pass is as pronounced as mine when I choose to do one. :lol1: It's SO easy Phil. All you have to do is slightly nudge the car in front of you in a turn and that's it, you're by. It's like stealing candy from a baby.

At the Halloween 100 Lapper, I had MANY MANY opportunities to do it. But I chose not too. On the flipside, there were those who tried to and paid for it by losing time and crashing.

[Rick]

Originally posted by Phil
Speaking of indoor karting now, with limited acceleration, grip, small speed differences and narrow track width, don't you think some bumping should be allowed?

Sure, if it's made absolutely clear that everyone can do it. But that's not the case. CIR explicitly says that bump passes are not allowed. If they change the rule and make it ok for everyone to do it, then I will start to do it. :yes:

[D. Harrington]

:rolleyes1:
Rick,
You will start to do it??? I seem to remember a clean pass on you in Peter's event the other night in the hairpin and shortly afterword feeling someone trying to spin me twice before the Red Bull. We have all done it.....some intentionally when our emotions got the best of us...and some bumping unintentionally. I don't believe in bumping for a pass....but a little bump on the straightaway doesn't hurt anyone and may let a slower driver know you are there(which usually is a bad thing). As far as outdoor karting goes...obviously this is a completely different animal. As Roberto said....bumping is commonplace in outdoor karting, but normally this is a much different type of bumping than we see indoors. There is a lot of bump drafting on long straights when drivers want to work together to either get away from the pack or catch back up with the leaders. Bumping happens indoors and outdoors and is considered acceptable as long as it doesn't result in a driver gaining position from pushing someone out of the way. Just my take....................

[ssracing10]

Hey guys next year go to a road course race and watch the 125cc shifter and all your bump questions will be answered :)

[Rick]

Originally posted by Dave Harrington
You will start to do it??? I seem to remember a clean pass on you in Peter's event the other night in the hairpin and shortly afterword feeling someone trying to spin me twice before the Red Bull.

I have been purposely making more contact with those I believe who make contact with me in the past 2 league races, as I stated before:

From now on, I have a new policy. Anyone who continues to make contact with me, I will do the same in return. I will continue to avoid any contact with anyone who does not initiate it with me (on a continuing basis).

And I think you're right Dave that all of us have unintentionally bumped someone and gained from it. But there are some who simply incorporate the bump pass into their strategy and mindset in all races they participate in. And let's not forget the driver(s) who can't stand being passed and immediately start to pound anyone who successfully pulls off a clean pass :unsure:.

:surrender: I give up. I'm going to join the dark side. ;)

I also think that it can get out of hand and it's just a matter of time....

1. Someone, ahem :unsure: , drives full speed into the back of Martin's stationary kart.
2. Two people get in each other's faces at the last league event. I thought for sure that would end up in a fist fight.

[Rick]

Originally posted by ssracing10@Nov 1 2006, 10:28 PM
Hey guys next year go to a road course race and watch the 125cc shifter and all your bump questions will be answered* :)
2425


Do you bump pass people in a shifter?

[rct25]

"Hey guys next year go to a road course race and watch the 125cc shifter and all your bump questions will be answered "

Great point Stefan!, but remember that You and Matthew are racing at a different level with people that have been racing for over 10 or 15 years. You are absolutely right.

At the New Castle Enduro couple weeks ago, Dan Wheldon was bumping everybody the first laps of the race, do you think he can drive? or is he a bad driver?

Also, good luck at the Nationals in Vegas, I am sure you would not see any bumping there :D

Good luck to you and Matthew

Roberto

[MPIGP - Phillip Gordon]

Personally I believe there is a place for bumping in karting, indoor and outdoor, but few people execute it properly. There is definitely a difference in bumping to pass or advance (sometimes both karts benefit) and bumping to cause someone to wipe out. Bump drafting in road racing or sprint racing for that matter, on a straight to 'check out' from the pack is definitely ok in my books. That being said, if an organization decides to institute a 'no contact' rule and everyone abides by it, that would be my vote BUT only in outdoor karting. I believe some contact in indoor karting is absolutely unavoidable. The problem is monitoring it and making the right calls which requires properly trained corner workers. Most tracks don't train their corner workers so 'no calls' or worse 'wrong calls' are made then the drivers take matters into their own hands.

[ssracing10]

People in road courses bump you the whole striaght and then when you have to turn they dont brake they use you as a braking person and just shove you out of the line and then they pass you after they pushed you the whole straight...

[MPIGP - Phillip Gordon]

[People in road courses bump you the whole striaght and then when you have to turn they dont brake they use you as a braking person and just shove you out of the line and then they pass you after they pushed you the whole straight...]

Have you had that happen to you? That must've been scary.....luckily I've never had that happen to me and I've never done that to anyone. I have on both ends of a bump drafting down the straight but we would always back off before the braking zone.

[Martin Lenick]

Originally posted by CoolBreezeRacer@Nov 1 2006, 06:43 PM
Do you think your peers would admire you as having more skill/ racecraft and that you did an honorable thing?
2419


One doesn't do an "honorable" thing for the admiration of his peers. Honor is its own reward.

If you've ever feel badly for screwing up someone's race (which I have) you probably feel worse about yourself than what you did to the other driver.

[MPIGP - Phillip Gordon]

[One doesn't do an "honorable" thing for the admiration of his peers. Honor is its own reward.]

True dat

[If you've ever feel badly for screwing up someone's race (which I have) you probably feel worse about yourself than what you did to the other driver.]

I agree.