Running off line

[MPIGP - Phillip Gordon]

Here's another question I have. When a slower kart (indoor or outdoor runs a line different from the racing line with the sole purpose of keeping another kart behind them, is it defensive driving or just plain blocking?

[Rick]

Isn't the definition of blocking two moves or more?

[Mark Hirt]

Originally posted by rick@Nov 1 2006, 11:01 PM
Isn't the definition of blocking two moves or more?
2428


No

From the ChampCar rule book

6.25. BLOCKING. A driver altering their racing line based on the actions of pursuing competitors, or using an abnormal racing line to inhibit or prevent passing will be considered blocking. Blocking will result in a black flag or other penalty pursuant to Chapter 10. Judgmental decisions in this regard are not subject to protest or appeal.

Nothing about one or two moves.

We see it all the time.

Driver A knows Driver B is behind them. Driver A also knows driver B was not even close a couple laps ago but there is no freakin way driver B could be faster so driver A starts taking a tighter line into say the Hairpin or entrance to Red Bull. This leaves Driver B with NO opportunity to pass (blocking). Driver B could just "move" driver A out of the way but this is frowned upon (and rightly so). All this leads to a bigger problem..... Driver C catches up to drivers A & B, then of course Driver D (and sometime E) join the party, frustrations build and at some point Driver C or D "misses" their braking point by a foot and starts a chain reaction that ends up moving driver A out of the way. Of course Driver B gets penalized for being a passenger. Afterwards driver A is pissed at driver B, driver B is pissed at A & C but finds out later that they really should be pissed at E but is still pissed at A for allowing C, D, E... to catch up.

[MPIGP - Phillip Gordon]

:lol1: Funny but not funn....I agree 100%

[MPIGP - Phillip Gordon]

BTW The above is a perfect example of when it is essential that driver B execute a 'love tap' with finesse (not a banzai or ram rod job) to get by driver A.

[Rick]

A driver altering their racing line based on the actions of pursuing competitors...

:lol: They should make the definition slightly more objective than that. According to that definition, everyone can be classified as a blocker.

[CIR-Reed]

It also seems that wether Erjon is driver B, C, D, E, F, or G it is assumed that he is at fault and driver A is mad at him :dunno:

[Martin Lenick]

Mark and Reed

Those have to be among the all-time funniest CR posts!

:lotssmile:

[MPIGP - Phillip Gordon]

[A driver altering their racing line based on the actions of pursuing competitors, or using an abnormal racing line to inhibit or prevent passing will be considered blocking.]


[They should make the definition slightly more objective than that. According to that definition, everyone can be classified as a blocker.]


I think it's pretty clear Rick and BTW I agree 100%, if a driver makes any move in front of another driver attempting a pass, with the sole purpose of trying to inhibit or prevent the pass, it's straight up blocking. The key here is to run the racing line unless you're making or attempting a pass yourself. Do that and you will not be accused of blocking.

[Rick]

Even the fastest drivers tighten up their line to protect their position when a train is behind them. Just doing that qualifies as "blocking" according to that definition. Also, everyone in that train is also doing the same thing, so everyone is blocking. Everyone except the last guy.

Is Senna blocking here? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oStMJUYrI0A

In my opinion he is doing everything in that definition provided by Mark. However, he is not flagged for blocking by the officials.

[MPIGP - Phillip Gordon]

[Even the fastest drivers tighten up their line to protect their position when a train is behind them. Just doing that qualifies as "blocking" according to that definition.]

I see your point Rick....maybe 'inhibit' should be taken out of that statement. After watching that video, I would say Senna was not blocking but in taking a tighter line into the left hander he was definitely slowing Prost to inhibit the pass. I wouldn't say he was blocking though because the only time I saw him move in front of Prost was to stay on the racing line....and even then, he always left room. I don't see anything wrong with that....do you? Personally I can live with that type of driving. When I am trying to pass on the outside, I expect the driver to move in that direction so I make sure I have enough speed to beat him to the spot or I back off. What I have a problem with is a driver moving off line unexpectedly and for no reason other than to stop a pass.

[Rick]

By that definition, any defensive line is blocking because the intent of defensive driving is to protect your position by inhibiting or preventing people behind you from passing you.

You would be an idiot if you drove the optimal racing line all the time. People would just dive in on you.

Speaking of diving... when does the passer become the blocker? In order to dive, you have to make a sacrafice in the racing line to beat another driver to a specific spot. And once you get there, you must retain that position by altering your line in such a way that he cannot repass you. That in itself is blocking. If you dove and then took the optimal racing line (a wider line) out of the turn, most likely you would be repassed since your oponent is already set up for a faster exit.

The definition is vague and subjective. It relies on the officials to guess as to what the intent of a driver was. So basically that's what it is... a guess. I think the 2 moves rule can clearly be defined and measured.

In my opinion, Senna was not blocking. He only had 1 line. 1 move per corner. In F1, you see drivers making 1 move all the time at the start. Some moves are BLATANT blocks, but they are never called. Why? I think that most officials go with the 2 move rule.

Here's the ultimate question. Were you blocking Martin when you were behind Timmy? Arguements could be made that you were. According to that very definition, you were driving a line that prevented Martin from passing you (albeit while you were attempting to pass Timmy). And was Timmy "blocking" you? If he drove the optimal racing line, I'm sure you would have had absolutely no problem passing him on the back straight. The only thing that could have prevented this would be that Timmy drove in such a way that it prevented you from taking advantage of your extra HP and gear.

[rct25]

Gentlemen:

Please,

1.- We are talking about RACING!!! This is F1 RACING!! :blink:

and

2.- How can we "talk" about Senna; are we now going to analyze and decide if Senna was right or wrong? We are talking about Ayrton Senna!!

Are we going to decide if FIA officials are right or wrong? :blink:


Roberto

[MPIGP - Phillip Gordon]

[You would be an idiot if you drove the optimal racing line all the time. People would just dive in on you.]

:headscratch: :screwy:

[Speaking of diving... when does the passer become the blocker? In order to dive, you have to make a sacrafice in the racing line to beat another driver to a specific spot. And once you get there, you must retain that position by altering your line in such a way that he cannot repass you. That in itself is blocking. If you dove and then took the optimal racing line (a wider line) out of the turn, most likely you would be repassed since your oponent is already set up for a faster exit.]

Blocking is driving like you have eyes in the back of your head. You move off line to place your kart/car in front of a driver behind you attempting a pass with the intention of preventing the pass. If a driver attempts a pass on you and you attempt a pass on the driver in front of you at the same time, yes you are blocking the driver behind you but that is justifiable because your purpose was not to prevent a pass. You inadvertently blocked the driver behind.

[Here's the ultimate question. Were you blocking Martin when you were behind Timmy?]

One of these days I'll join you guys at track 4 and I'll tell you....but only if Martin is buying.....do they serve lemonade? :cheers:

[2.- How can we "talk" about Senna; are we now going to analyze and decide if Senna was right or wrong? We are talking about Ayrton Senna!!]

Come on now, Senna may have been a god behind the wheel but I only know one God that's perfect so Senna can make mistakes...although not in this case. :diablotin:

[Mark Hirt]

Originally posted by rick@Nov 4 2006, 02:51 AM
You would be an idiot if you drove the optimal racing line all the time. People would just dive in on you.
2485


Only if they are actually faster

[MPIGP - Phillip Gordon]

[You would be an idiot if you drove the optimal racing line all the time. People would just dive in on you.]

[Only if they are actually faster]

My thought exactly and if they are, why should they be blocked from advancing?

The issue is, too many racers have the mind set of racing to keep others behind instead of racing to stay in front. If a driver does a dive bomb pass and then start to pull away, they deserve to be in front. To purposely nail them in a slow turn because you're mad they made an aggressive move on you is just wrong.

[Rick]

Originally posted by CoolBreezeRacer+Nov 4 2006, 12:37 PM-->[You would be an idiot if you drove the optimal racing line all the time. People would just dive in on you.]

:screwy:* [/b]

So you're telling me that you drive the optimal line when you're stuck in a train? :rolleyes1: You know you tighten up your line, and therefore are blocking by your definition.

<!--QuoteBegin-CoolBreezeRacer@Nov 4 2006, 12:37 PM
To purposely nail them in a slow turn because you're mad they made an aggressive move on you is just wrong.
2490


Well I definitely agree with you there!

But no one has addressed how the F1 drivers CLEARLY are blocking at the start of a race. Some guys will make one HUGE move all the way over just to cut off another driver. That is not the optimal racing line and is clearly blocking.

To see what I mean watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pn_sb_2nT_o

There's some blatant blocking going on there. But notice there is no punting going on (yet) :lol: .

[Rick]

Originally posted by rct25@Nov 4 2006, 08:05 AM
Are we going to decide if FIA officials are right or wrong? :blink:
Roberto
2486


Exactly! Even though the FIA definition of blocking is very similiar to the Champ Car one, the officials do not think he is blocking. What I am saying is that what he is doing can be called blocking by the very vague definition given by the rule Mark quoted. He is clearly altering (although by one move only) his line to inhibit the drivers behind him from passing. I think that the FIA officials are right and he is not blocking. But someone can certainly make the arguement that he is blocking by that vague definition.

[Martin Lenick]

This won't help the arguement, but I think it's really simple:
If you're blocking, at least one person knows it: you.

[rct25]

If you're blocking, at least one person knows it: you

Martin, that is great!! :D


It all depends from what point of view:

for the driver in front = defensive line

for the driver behind = blocking


Roberto

[MPIGP - Phillip Gordon]

[If you're blocking, at least one person knows it: you.]

Amen

[Rick]

Originally posted by Martin Lenick@Nov 4 2006, 05:36 PM
This won't help the arguement, but I think it's really simple:
If you're blocking, at least one person knows it: you.
2493


So we need officials who can read minds OR we need a rule that can clearly be explained and defined repeatedly.

[MPIGP - Phillip Gordon]

[So we need officials who can read minds OR we need a rule that can clearly be explained an defined repeatedly.]

No...all we need are more honorable racers.