Parilla Leopard vs Rotax FR125

[Rick]

Roberto and Martin: Why did you guys choose to go with Parilla Leopard? I was reading the most recent National Kart News and they list the Rotax FR125 as having 28 hp vs the Leopard's 26 hp. Just curious what made you guys decide to go with that engine.

[MPIGP - Phillip Gordon]

Roberto and Martin: Why did you guys choose to go with Parilla Leopard? I was reading the most recent National Kart News and they list the Rotax FR125 as having 28 hp vs the Leopard's 26 hp. Just curious what made you guys decide to go with that engine.

I am curious too guys, why did you buy the Leopards? If you had to do it again, would buy the Leopard? or something else?

[Rick]

I've been researching this and it seems that many believe that Leopards are good for tracks that have a high variance of speeds due to it's wider powerband. CHMS is one of those tracks. It has really slow sections like turns 2,3,8, and 9. And then it also has high speed turns like the Monza. The extra torque that the Leopard engine provides lets it pull harder out of those tight turns than Rotax engines. The Leopard also has no rev limiter which can be an advantage.

On tracks where the speeds of the turns are medium to high, it seems people prefer the Rotax engine. I talked to a shop and they said that some guys have both the Rotax and a Leopard engine and use them for different tracks.

[Martin Lenick]

they list the Rotax FR125 as having 28 hp vs the Leopard's 26 hp.
Everyone knows Italian horses have more power than French horses.:grinno:

So far, my best time in the Leopard is the same as my best in the Rotax. Either are still only about 0.4 from the best of the best Leopard times. Because of the Leopard's superiority coming out of slow corners, Rotax racers have to drive better; I trust Mickelson can do that. If so, he can gear down a bit and not lose as much at straightaway's end as I did.

[MPIGP - Phillip Gordon]

Everyone knows Italian horses have more power than French horses.:grinno:

So far, my best time in the Leopard is the same as my best in the Rotax. Either are still only about 0.4 from the best of the best Leopard times. Because of the Leopard's superiority coming out of slow corners, Rotax racers have to drive better; I trust Mickelson can do that. If so, he can gear down a bit and not lose as much at straightaway's end as I did.

Actually, the opposite may be true....gearing for more top end where the Rotax is strong, and being smooth so you can carry more speed through the turns may allow the Rotax to be more competitive with the leopard at CHMS.

[Martin Lenick]

I meant what Phil said, not the opposite. When I said "gearing down", I think I screwed up; I meant a smaller sprocket on the axle. I guess that would be a higher gear, even though it has less teeth. Oops.

[MPIGP - Phillip Gordon]

I meant what Phil said, not the opposite. When I said "gearing down", I think I screwed up; I meant a smaller sprocket on the axle. I guess that would be a higher gear, even though it has less teeth. Oops.

Martin, that's funny because that's what I thought you meant to say but then you threw me off when you said 'and not lose as much at straightaway's end as I did.' Brian Jacobsen is one of the best at maximizing that kind of setup especially at CHMS. It sounds to me like we may have another BJ in the making. Before the season is over, I'd love to mix it up with you and Dave in the TAG class.

[Martin Lenick]

It sounds to me like we may have another BJ in the making. Before the season is over, I'd love to mix it up with you and Dave in the TAG class.Thanks for equating me with Brian Jacobsen, but I think you're ignoring Dave's talent. :grinno: Oh. did I have that backwards?

Not to put too fine a point on it, but I doubt we'll see you out there in TaG, and we shouldn't - you owe many appearances in DD2 before you betray them and show up in a TaG.

[MPIGP - Phillip Gordon]

Thanks for equating me with Brian Jacobsen, but I think you're ignoring Dave's talent. :grinno: Oh. did I have that backwards?

Not to put too fine a point on it, but I doubt we'll see you out there in TaG, and we shouldn't - you owe many appearances in DD2 before you betray them and show up in a TaG.

You're in rare form tonight Martin :grinno:

As far as leaving DD2 to run TAG, my plan was to switch karts with someone in a TAG so they would make up the spot I vacate in the DD2 class.

[Martin Lenick]

As far as leaving DD2 to run TAG, my plan was to switch karts with someone in a TAG so they would make up the spot I vacate in the DD2 class. You need to earn the trust of the DD2 drivers (clients [client]) before any TaG owner will entrust you with his ride in exchange for a DD2 race that has no precedent.

My first offer of trading TaG for DD2 would go to Rick; I know he'd appreciate an even race.

[MPIGP - Phillip Gordon]

You need to earn the trust of the DD2 drivers (clients [client]) before any TaG owner will entrust you with his ride in exchange for a DD2 race that has no precedent.

My first offer of trading TaG for DD2 would go to Rick; I know he'd appreciate an even race.

Thanks for the reality check. For a moment I almost thought it would be fun racing in the TAG class.

[Martin Lenick]

Thanks for the reality check. For a moment I almost thought it would be fun racing in the TAG class.

I'm missing something here - why would TaG not be fun?? Even if "fun" is not your inspiration, why would TaG not be fullfilling, competitive...? It just needs to be true. Grab a TaG (from whomever trades with you) and let's race. Race starts when the green flag drops, not before.

[Rick]

Update: Well after 1.5 years of karting, I have tried both the Rotax FR125 and the Leopard. Personally, I like the Leopard. But at my home track (Norway), there have been a few Rotaxes that post comparable speeds (46s). But no Rotax has even come close to the track record (low 45s) set at WKA Man Cup race. Personally, I haven't been able to post an laptime in my Rotax FR 125 that is comparible to my laptimes in my Leopard TAG kart. But that's probably mostly due to the amount of seat time I have in my Leopard heavily out weighs my seat time in my Rotax.

In my experience, I have found the Rotax a pain in the ass to tune. The Leopard's carb is much easier to tune since you don't have to take it apart and change the jets, needles, and floats each time.

The Leopard has cost me a ton to race over one season. It cost me much more (almost double or triple) to race an IAME Leopard vs a Rotax DD2. The Leopard has stuck once and blown up once. The Rotax has never stuck or blown up.

TAG seems like an arms race. Everyone has the trick carbs, the engine rebuilds by tuner shops, new sets of tires for practice, etc, etc. People spin their Leopards up to 17,000 RPM and rebuild them every 6 hours (at regional and national levels). I've never competed in Rotax at the regional level, but from what I hear people do not rebuild engines every 6 hours.

In my experience, TAG has been much more competitive. But once again that's limited to my experiences. I haven't really raced in a regional level or national level Rotax race.

The Leopard has a much wider powerband and tends to do better on tracks with large variances in corner speed. The Rotax, even though it has less horsepower, is generally thought to do better on a tracks where the cornering speeds have little variance. I've heard people say that they also do well in road racing or high speed courses like Rock Island.

Rotax has an international world championship. TAG does not. In the midwest, there are tons of Leopards. I don't think there are as many Rotax engines out there (in the midwest).

[D. Harrington]

Rick,

No one did a low 44 in the TAG class at the WKA event at Norway (or ever as far as I know). The best lap was a mid 45 (which is an awesome lap!)by Jacobsen and Firing. I am convinced that you could achieve a similar lap time in a Rotax with a proper set-up. As far as I know...no one has really really worked at setting up a Rotax properly for Norway....because no one believes that it can compete with a Leopard there. I happen to disagree....I will be working with Roberto next Friday (weather permitting) at Norway to get ready for the Halloween race. Brennan has put in 46s in his Jr. Rotax out there, so I'm pretty sure we can get a Sr. Rotax give a Leopard a race. Zach Beard put a Rotax on pole at the RoboPong event at New Castle by two tenths(which is a considerable amount of time when you are talking about over 80 karts competing). It will be interesting to see how Roberto runs in the Rotax vs. the Leopard.

Dave

[Rick]

You're right Dave. The best lap is 45.434 posted by Travis Firing (http://www.mylaps.com/results/showrun.jsp?id=900724). That is a very fast lap. If the Rotax can compete and is cheaper (in the sense of cost of ownership; not having to rebuild it every 6 hours), why aren't there more Rotaxes competing in WKA Man Cup? I'm curious to see how Roberto will do as well. Is he racing the Rotax in the Halloween race? I think Ryan and I are racing in HPV Heavy for the Halloween race because there seems to be more competition in HPV Heavy.

In your experience at competing at the national level, how many Rotax have you seen or heard of blowing up or sticking? And how often do the guys you compete with rebuild their Rotax engines? And how often do you guys rebuild your engines?

[D. Harrington]

Rick,

The team did not have a single engine failure this season and I did not see one at MRP. We ran our engine all season without a rebuild(just had a new ring put in), and we are still running strong. The Rotax package is very reliable....we did replace a clutch this season after three seasons of use. Rotax is coming out with an updated clutch this season that is more durable. We send our engines to Tim Lobaugh at MRP at the end of the season and he replaces any worn components. Invoice for a top end runs around $300....full rebuild about $1000. We only had the top end done after the first season...full rebuild at the start of this season.

Dave

[Rick]

Wow, it does seem like the Rotax is more reliable. How many hours do you guys run in a season? I think I ran 15 races and probably 10 practice days this season. That's probably about 25-30 hours for me this season. I had the engine rebuilt twice though. Once by Woltjer and once by VKP.

[D. Harrington]

We run the "*&^% out of them. We put in a full day of practice prior to each club race at MRP, 12 races at MRP, 3 days of running at Rotax Shootout @ Shawano, 6 days of running at Nationals, and several testing days.

[Rick]

Thanks for all the insight Dave! I guess I'll start practicing with my Rotax more seriously next year. If the reliability is that good, then I can't ignore that. Most of my "surprise" expenses have been engine related this year. I thought that i was being diligent in taking care of the engine and sending it to the right people to work on. Maybe they are just inherently fragile. It is odd that more people don't run the Rotax in WKA Man Cup. Maybe they are hard to tune?

[Jeff Salak]

I'm kind of where Rick is at. Reliability issues with my Tag engine(SONIK). I have spent thousands of dollars on my Sonik($5000) in a year and a half. This is rebuils and everything that has gone wrong with it. 6 starting gears alone! I was thinking of getting a leopard, but it seems they are as much as a pain in the ass!
With the Rotax the tuning scares me to get one. I'm not the best when it comes to playing with my carb. Its alot easier to tune a leopard or a sonik maybe the better word is not as complicated.
Dave the amount of time on your Rotax is amazing with little problems! Has your times dropped off from fresh rebuild to say 25 hours on engine? Do you have to change jet setting all day long? Is this based on how the weather is on that day?
Jeff

[JET Karting - Andy Finke]

Just a few quick thoughts between customers today...

Rotax should be MUCH less expensive over the course of a season. Far fewer unexpected breakages.
I always believed the common 'knowledge' that Rotax would be slower at CHMS and NCMP among other tracks. The RoboPong pole has proven otherwise. Now I'm grinning. ;)
Tuning the Rotax is really no tougher than tuning the Leopard. It just takes a couple more minutes. The simplicity of turning needles vs. changing jets should not be confused with having the mixture correct. Most Leopards aren't tuned right either.
The Rotax is easier to diagnose rich or lean.
Starting the season with a Sonic is begging for trouble. I've done it!
Higher Rpm is usually faster, and always more maintenance. You'll never beat the odds long term. Rotax has a rev limiter to 'help' you beat the addiction.Andy

[David Yourd]

Questions;

Are you guys speaking of running the Rotax with TAG rules or ROTAX MAX rules?

Believe me I had my share of engine problems as well this year. If I understand correctly in Rotax Max your jets or tubes are limited so you have to work the floats to decrease the bog in the motor? Has anyone run a tag legal carb with one?

From what I have seen, yes it is very fast on road race tracks and fast tracks like Rock Island. And I watched Zach at New Castle and his quailfiying was incredible. I would say the jury is still out on 1) How it will perform in traffic during the race 2) real tight tracks with long straights.

With all the failures I have seen this year it looks pretty attractive.

[Rick]

I also want to see how it performs in traffic and on tracks with large variances of speed. Martin always said that passing was very hard to do in a Rotax against other TAG engines due to lack of torque on the bottom end of the RPM range (especially in T2 and T3). It is entirely one thing to post a fast lap and another to be able to pull off passes and win the race. That's what I like about the Leopard; It has a really broad power band.

These two points become mute if you race in a strictly Rotax class. So it's the chicken and the egg problem now. Phil had convinced me to be come one of the first DD2 racers and that never caught on. In fact, most of the DD2 racers left his series to form their own.

I've always liked the spec engine class idea and the Rotax program, but I will never be the first one to financially commit again. I learned my lesson already. But I'd love to see everyone else buy Rotaxes and start racing in the Rotax/TAG series at Norway. :thumbsup: Oh wait... I already own a ROTAX FR125. And still no one races Rotax out there.

[JET Karting - Andy Finke]

If I understand correctly in Rotax Max your jets or tubes are limited so you have to work the floats to decrease the bog in the motor?

You have a lot of jet options, as well as needle position. You are not allowed to change emulsion tubes, needles, etc. with RotaxMax rules. TAGUSA rules allow any stock Dellorto parts, therefore different needles, tubes, etc...

Done right, that will help. The Leopard and Rotax are going to be different, just not as much as I thought before.


Andy

[avmaviator]

For a newbie in kart engine tunning, would I be better off going Leopard or Rotax? I like the reliability aspect as I wouldn't run the kart all the time so right now I am leaning towards a Rotax... Plus I can't let Rick be the only one out at there with his FR125!

[JET Karting - Andy Finke]

I believe I can teach a new karter to tune a Rotax easier than a Leopard.

A Leopard gets to lean and it sticks, Rotax gets to lean and pops, sputters, and runs poorly. Leopard gets to rich and runs similar with a 1 hp drop not unheard of. Rotax to rich won't rev to max RPM.

All in all, the Rotax does a better job of making the error seen, without causing damage. While the actual act of adjusting takes a little more time, the learning when to change is MUCH easier. And less critical...

I feel this is good in the end.


Andy

[Jeff Salak]

Does anyone use there Rotax for road racing? Had read on ekarting news on a thread and didnt realize that a Rotax won at Road America, I think in senior by a good amount. That blew me away. Didn't think it had a chance at a track like that. Didn't know it had enough top end. Keeps making me think to go with a Rotax.
Jeff

[JET Karting - Andy Finke]

Rotax's have proven time and time again that they can compete with anything in Road Racing. NO QUESTION, there would be one on my kart for RR. Tuned correctly, I know it would outrun a well tuned Sonic TX, and I can tune a TX as well as most...

Rotax is short of bottom end grunt when compared to Leopards. At tracks with smaller RPM variances, like RIGP and road racing, the Leopard never gets to show off in this area. Tracks like CHMS and NCMP with fast straights and slow corners are the norm in sprint, and do allow the Leopard to pull off the hairpins better... Or so I thought before the Robopong this year.

In most racing, given a choice between low, mid, or high rpm performance, you would be fastest with the mid-range. That is where the Rotax is strongest.

What we lack most in the midwest is having the best drivers and tuners in the Rotax camp. Both coasts have that in spades.


Andy

[Jeff Stamper]

YOu say the Rotax is short on bottom end grunt, then why do they run 1 tooth more on the clutch than the rest of the Tag motors ? To me, that means it has awsome bottom end. If you run a 12/80 on a Leopard, it wont get off the corners at all will it ?

[JET Karting - Andy Finke]

Different gear because of a different rpm range.

You gear for a target rpm range. Power differences will show on dyno sheets.


Andy

[Rick]

The Leopard definitely has a more wide power band than the Rotax (in my opinion). It feels like it pulls better off the corners. The Rotax powerband is up higher and more narrow.

Personally, I'm faster with the Leopard. But I will be trying to get faster with my Rotax this season.

[Jeff Salak]

Rick, if you ever run at Badger. No one there runs a Rotax. They run Leopards, Soniks, and whatever else. Badger has tighter turns and gets beaten up on that track. One guy had a Rotax, he is a very good racer too. But he went with a Leopard as he was getting eaten up in the turns.

Whats funny is how well Soniks do at Badger in Masters class. Not sure but I think Leopard has upper hand there in Senior.

Certain tracks that Rotax can kick some butt. I think as sad as it sounds you need a couple engines depending where you are running.

[rct25]

Badger is doing kart tech this Sunday!

Roberto

Sunday Kart Tech
It appears that weather may hamper another weekend at Badger. In the event that we don’t race this Sunday we will still be offering Tech to those that are interested. Bring your entire motor assembly to the tech barn any time during the day and we will look at anything you care to have inspected.

[Jeff Salak]

Roberto, are you going up there?

Dont think Sundays weather will let it happen.
Its a non-points race.

Jeff

[tonyb8878]

what gear would you run a rotax at norway?

[Jeff Stamper]

12/78 or 79

[tonyb8878]

which gas is best to run a rotax?

[Rick]

The official fuel and oil for the USRMC is VP Racing Fuels Motorsports 93 unleaded gasoline and Motul 800 2T Factory Line Off Road full synthetic two cycle oil.

But I've seen people run 93 pump gas. The quality of pump gas is not the same as the racing fuel and could cost you hp.