"The most violent crash I've ever seen at Norway"

[Rick]

"It was the most violent crash I've ever seen at Norway". That was the general consensus of those who saw the accident in which Martin broke his collar bone yesterday. I was there and saw the whole thing unfold right before my eyes. I think that the entire incident was caused by a driver attempting to make a very low percentage pass which would have resulted gaining no advantage even if he was successful. This is the second time this driver has attempted a pass like this in the very same corner and caused an incident like this. The last time, Martin was right behind him and had no where to go and hit that kart while it was sliding sideways and backwards on the track.

There were actually 2 accidents in this particular incident. One was caused by a low percentage passing attempt. The other was purely collision avoidance.

[Rick]

There was a 4 kart train. The #10 kart was blatantly blocking for the entire race. Having tried to pass everywhere else, #63 thought he might try passing going into the S turn over the bridge. In my opinion, that pass is extremely low percentage and high risk. If you make the pass, the kart being passes is probably going to go off at the top of the bridge. If you don't make it... the following happens.

#10 takes a tighter, but certainly valid line, into the left hander. #63 accelerates and puts his front right next to #10's rear left. As I was watching, I knew that contact was inevitable. I had already given them 2 kart lengths of space because I wanted to capitalize on any contact made. I guess I was wrong, I should have given them 4 or 5 lengths.


http://chicagoracers.com/images/MartinsAccident1.jpg

[Rick]

http://chicagoracers.com/images/MartinsAccident2.jpg

Oops the comment is wrong. It should read:

"Kart 63's front right touches Kart 10's rear left. This caused Kart 63 [not 36] to start sliding sideways..."

[Rick]

http://chicagoracers.com/images/MartinsAccident3.jpg

[Rick]

http://chicagoracers.com/images/MartinsAccident4.jpg

[Rick]

When karts #63, #88, and #9 come to a complete stop off the racing surface, my first thought was to get back on the track asap. I look at #63 and he's looking back at #9. I turn and see Martin sprawled on the ground screaming in agonizing pain. #63 takes off and gets back into the race. I jump out and run over to Martin and ask him if he's ok. All he can say is "My back! My back!". He wasn't moving, so I thought the worst might have happened. Luckily his back was not broken.

[Vic]

Wow...I'm surprised Martin is not more seriously injured than what he is...not to play down a broken collar bone, but from the description of the accident it looks like it could have turned out worse.

[Rick]

Wow...I'm surprised Martin is not more seriously injured than what he is...not to play down a broken collar bone, but from the description of the accident it looks like it could have turned out worse.

At least once, he landed on his head with the entire weight of the kart on top of him. I think he was lucky that he wasn't in his other seat. His other seat wraps around his chest more and would have locked him into position more and probably increased the chances of a spinal injury.

[CIR-Reed]

The broken collar bone is a small part of it.

He looks much worse than a guy with a broken collar bone. His entire back is basicially one big bruise. His back seems to be hurting REALLY badly as well.

[Rick]

To his credit, the driver of kart #63 came up later and apologized for his actions. He said "I was the only driver who could have made sure that incident did not happen.".

[ssracing10]

Rick, was it the margay guys?

[Rick]

Rick, was it the margay guys?

Yes, it was #63, the points leader. How did you ever guess that? :rolleyes: :disappointed: Do you see some kind of pattern or something?

[ssracing10]

Yea those guys are just something else, when I was there to race, I think if I hadnt pulled out a lead in the final that guy wouldve taken me out for sure somewhere.

[CIR-Reed]

I suppose I should put on my flame suit before I say this and I should mention that I wasn't there and have no idea what was actually going on or happened.

You said that the driver of #36 which am assuming is a typo and was supposed to be #63 apologized and said "I was the only driver who could have made sure that incident didn't happen."

I agree that he could have not attempted to pass the other driver. You mentioned yesterday that the driver in the lead was blocking like crazy. Sometimes when someone is blocking like crazy you might make a more aggressive than usual pass or attempt to pass in a weird place to get by.

Do you think the driver of #63 should not have attempted a pass? I think he definitely should have tried to pass somewhere. My opinion (remember that all of my information is 3rd party) is that the driver in the lead is the driver at fault. The driver in second place was doing his best to get around and should not be faulted for that. The involvement of Rick and Martin was an unfortunate incident resulting from some poor driving. I would not, however, discourage people from attempting to pass a blocking driver.

[Rick]

You said that the driver of #36 which am assuming is a typo and was supposed to be #63 apologized and said "I was the only driver who could have made sure that incident didn't happen."

Yes. That's what he said. And yes it was the driver of #63.

I agree that he could have not attempted to pass the other driver. You mentioned yesterday that the driver in the lead was blocking like crazy. Sometimes when someone is blocking like crazy you might make a more aggressive than usual pass or attempt to pass in a weird place to get by.Well there's two ends of the spectrum and this pass is definitely on the more aggressive side and less likely to succeed. I saw the whole thing and I'm telling you there was zero room to pass. And that's why there was contact.

Do you think the driver of #63 should not have attempted a pass? Definitely not there at that time and under those circumstances.

I'm not saying no one shouldn't ever attempt to pass anywhere. I'm just saying that under those circumstances, there was simply no way he was going to make that pass. And he's tried it before and the same thing happened. He spun the same way. But last time, Martin was right behind him and nailed him.

Are you saying that there are no passing moves/attempts which have a low percentage of success and dangerous to all karts/cars around them? I believe this was one of those cases, especially with the prior history behind it. If you actually look at the track you will see what I'm talking about.

Also if you don't believe me ask Stefan.

[Mark Hirt]

I know of three incidents at Norway all involve one driver who is never at fault.

[Rick]

I know of three incidents at Norway all involve one driver who is never at fault.

And who would that be?

[El 77]

I wish Martin a speedy recovery. He is one of the nicest guys I have ever met.

This sounds like a terrible accident that really did not have to happen IMHO. :frown:

[peterjank]

Thanks for the excellent diagrams of the incident Rick. Although I was at the track, I did not see it and was very confused as to how it occurred. I had the impression it had occurred in the Monza turn.

I think Reed's point is that blocking often forces the trailing driver to make unorthodox moves and you don't want to make a categorical statement that some passing attempts are inherently wrong\evil. We have all experienced situations at CIR that required a degree of creativity to resolve.

The speed of travel and associated potential consequences of a passing attempts failure play a big part in what is acceptable behavior on a race track. There are many things we can try at CIR simply because the speeds are low and the consequences of failure therefore are generally low as well.

That principal also applies here. At low speed, this area is a perfectly acceptable passing area. I have passed people there on both the inside and outside when driving CHMS's rental karts which are low speed. I've also failed to pass in that location with the rental karts and it was no big deal, again, because of the low speed.

Of course the high speed of the TAG karts in this area makes the consequences of failure quite high. Given the nature of the contact between the #10 and #63, rear wheel of #10 versus front wheel of #63, it would appear that #63 had no shot at all. I never try a pass unless I think I can get fully beside a kart before they try to turn in, hence my general rule that side-to-side contact is a legitimate pass while hiting someone in the rear quarter and turning them around is not.

On the other hand, it has been said that #10 was blocking. Suppose #10 had left that door open the previous lap or two thinking that he was safe from attack there? When he saw #63 try to make the lunge, #10 might have altered his line and turned in more aggressively. #63 may have attempted to slow to avoid contact but did not have enough space to get the job done, resulting in contact between his front tire and the rear tire of #10. Under that scenario, I think #10 would be the clear villian and entirely to blame for the accident.

My point here is not to excuse what either #10 or #63 did in this case, I'm just trying to lay out a scenario that makes an overtaking attempt in the area reasonable. Like Reed, I don't like the idea of ruling out some passing attempts categorically.

It looks to me that Rick did that the right thing by leaving some space in an attempt to avoid what he saw as a potential accident. Martin was likely shielded by Rick's kart and did not have as clear of a view of the potential accident developing. As a result, Martin had to react instantaneously as the situation developed. At the speed that TAGs travel, no ones reaction time can hope to do that. Hence the lack of skid marks from Martin's kart.

In the end, a bad thing happend to a really good guy.

[MPIGP - Phillip Gordon]

It's very obvious to me that I see things very differently from most on this forum so please don't think my comments are meant for personal attack on anyone. The reason for my comments is, if incidents like these are not reduced or eliminated, it will keep some people away from a sport that I love. One way of attempting to avoid a repeat of a crash like this, is to look at the incident from all angles and talk with all involved to see what each person could've done to avoid it. I too think Martin is one of the nicest guys I've ever met and although we've had our differences, I am really sorry to see this happen to him. I hope it doesn't deter him from racing.

Comments on the crash: Like Reed, I didn't see the crash, but from the blow by blow description from Rick, kart #63 is not the only guy at fault. Furthermore, he didn't cause Martin's injury. His comments may have been based on him thinking if he didn't attempt the pass, none of this would've happened and that may have been true, but no true racer is going to sit behind a slower driver 'blatantly blocking' as Rick stated, and not try to get around. If the guy was running the proper racing line and kart #63 forced a pass that would've been different.

First off, this IS one of the passing zones at CHMS and nowhere near the high risk of say the monza, the hairpin or even turn 1. A good run starting from the exit of the hairpin can setup a pass in this turn that can be done clean....unless like in this case, the driver in front is blocking and turns in early. So who should be blamed? The guy making the pass or the guy that is blocking?

Second point, Rick you said you knew contact was inevitable so you dropped back in anticipation of the incident. In that case, why were you 'hard on the brakes' when the incident happened? From your description of the incident, it sounds like you may be the cause of Martin's kart climbing over your rear wheel. Usually hitting the brakes hard is the last thing you want to do on a race track especially when you know you're running in a pack. Taking evasive action by steering around the incident should be the first option then if you are in danger of hitting a stationary object, you hit your brakes.

Like I said I didn't see the crash and I'm not here to create any waves. I'm only stating my opinion based on the description of the incident and hope that by giving another view, something like this can be avoided in the future.

As Peter said, track owners, series directors etc do things based on the business side of things. Entries are so low, it's hard for them to turn away business but they may end up losing business anyway because accidents like these drive away potential racers. When I first started to race a shifter, I remember SKUSA required karting experience and a sign off from my local race director or a member of SKUSA before I was allowed to race with them. Even local clubs required some experience before allowing a rookie to race a high hp kart. Now, someone with zero karting experience can go out and buy a high hp kart and start racing right away. TAG seems to be the big draw but to me it's one of the most dangerous classes. Not only is the average experience level low, it's a very high hp package with rear brakes only. Some of these karts weigh in at close to or over 400lbs and with the high top speed of these karts having no front brakes is just plain nuts.

[Rick]

Of course the high speed of the TAG karts in this area makes the consequences of failure quite high. Given the nature of the contact between the #10 and #63, rear wheel of #10 versus front wheel of #63, it would appear that #63 had no shot at all. I never try a pass unless I think I can get fully beside a kart before they try to turn in, hence my general rule that side-to-side contact is a legitimate pass while hiting someone in the rear quarter and turning them around is not.

I was watching the whole thing and #10 took a line that I would take. He did not alter his line nor would he have seen #63. #63 tried to dive inside AT (not before) the apex. Even if he got side by side with #10; at the earliest that would have been at the top of the bridge; he would have no where to go and be in an even worse position. Either that or #10 slams into the barrier and goes off at the top of the bridge.

On the other hand, it has been said that #10 was blocking. Suppose #10 had left that door open the previous lap or two thinking that he was safe from attack there? When he saw #63 try to make the lunge, #10 might have altered his line and turned in more aggressively. #63 may have attempted to slow to avoid contact but did not have enough space to get the job done, resulting in contact between his front tire and the rear tire of #10. Under that scenario, I think #10 would be the clear villian and entirely to blame for the accident.Yes #10 was blocking and yes #10 has an extensive history of making contact with other karts. In the prior race, he took out 37. But in this particular incident I saw #63 drive into #10 and not #10 cutting down on #63. That coupled with the fact that he has done this in the past once already with a very similar outcome.

I talked to Les about it and both Les and Steve (race director) agree that a pass attempt in that turn is extremely low percentage and high risk. They will talk to that driver about it prior to the next race.

Just imagine if the incident happened 10 more feet up the track and on top of the bridge. Where we went off it was fairly flat and no fences or barriers and lots of run off.

In the end, a bad thing happend to a really good guy.Yep. :frown:

[Rick]

Second point, Rick you said you knew contact was inevitable so you dropped back in anticipation of the incident. In that case, why were you 'hard on the brakes' when the incident happened?

I looked for a spot to go. Believe me, I looked for one. There was simply no where to go. Kart #63 was sideways sliding backwards to the right of the track. Kart #10 was sideways on the left of the track. My only other option was to slam my kart into #63 just like Martin did 2 weekends ago when #63 tried the exact same move and did the exact same thing. This is not the first time this has happened.

From your description of the incident, it sounds like you may be the cause of Martin's kart climbing over your rear wheel. Usually hitting the brakes hard is the last thing you want to do on a race track especially when you know you're running in a pack. Taking evasive action by steering around the incident should be the first option then if you are in danger of hitting a stationary object, you hit your brakes.I broke really hard to avoid a slowly moving object (#63) that was sideways and taking up half the track with #10 taking up the other half. My only other option would be to drive into him at full speed. I've already seen the results of that from 2 weeks ago.

Remember that #63 ended up off the track on the pit row by the weigh station. He got there by going backwards. What does that say? Perhaps my reflexes are not as good as someone who's been competing at the highest levels like you Phil, but I think I made the best decision possible within the time frame I had and under the circumstances at that time. I'm really glad I gave them 2 kart lengths. Otherwise both Martin and I might have gone over the bridge.

Also, why would #63 say he could have prevented this? He knew there was no where for us to go. That's because he was looking at us as he was sliding backwards. I guess next time I'll just ram him at full speed. :rolleyes:

[Adam Andrea]

I guess next time I'll just ram him at full speed. :rolleyes:
Totally disregarding my health and safety, this actually sounds like a good option to me.

[Rick]

http://chicagoracers.com/images/MartinsAccident5.jpg

Question of the day: How much time does it take for a kart that is moving forwards at full throttle to get out of shape and rotate and slide sideways and start to roll backwards?

Bonus Question: How much time does it take to move 12 feet going 60 mph?

Extra Credit: How much force would an impact of a kart moving 50 mph into a kart that is 2-5 mph sideways create? Would it be enough to launch over the barriers, over the fence and into the tech barn? (hint, Martin was probably going 45 - 35 mph at the time he launched)

If someone tells me where the TRON mode button is on the kart, I'll turn it on next time and just do a couple instantaneous 90 degree turns and be done with it.

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/2/28/Tron_Lightcycles.jpg

[rct25]

'hard on the brakes'.......why?
Why not run off the track? especially if you had some distance between the karts that were crashing in front of you.

Just my two cents....


Roberto

[Rick]

'hard on the brakes'.......why?
Why not run off the track? especially if you had some distance between the karts that were crashing in front of you.

Just my two cents....


Roberto

I tried to predict what #63's trajectory was going to be and I could not do so within the time I had (maybe 1/10th of a second). At that point, #63 had already started to roll backwards in a path that looked like it was going to intersect with my path off the track. I decided to turn off the path of impact and brake so I wouldn't be launched into the tech barn or fence if we made contact anyways. I also thought it would be a good idea to slow the kart down so I could retain more control of the kart on the grass. At that point in time, I did not know where Martin was in relation to me. I was focusing on the accident in front of me and the kart rolling in a direct path in front of me. I think I did spend about 50/100th's off time trying to look for an opening. I just could not guess where #63 was going to end up and I did not want to risk bodily harm by just guessing. I could have chosen to attempt to drive through where there was no hole and probably launched over the bridge. Or I could have swerved left and hit #10 and probably spin into #63. What would you have done?

I don't see how going off at full speed is a better option than slowing down first. :confused: Given a choice, I would almost always choose to go off at a slower speed. Am I missing something here? If you think you're going off at Rock Island; Do you go full speed or do you hit the brakes?

Why is no one asking why that dangerous pass attempt was made? Am I the only one thinks that was a dangerous move that forced me to alter my line and speed? If there weren't 2 karts sliding in the middle of the turn, I would have driven through. That wasn't he case. There were 2 obstacles in my way. I avoided them. If I hit them at full speed and rammed into them and broke there ribs or my ribs, people would probably ask why I didn't choose to go off instead.

I don't think you guys realize the amount of time to make that decision was extremely short. Look at the laptimes:

http://www.mylaps.com/results/newResults.jsp?id=548535

#63, Martin and I had laptimes that were within less than 1/10th of a second of each other for the ENTIRE track. So the actual time we had to react was a fraction of that. Can you even start and stop a stopwatch within less than 1/10th of a second? That's the kind of time we're talking about. Now imagine trying to do the following:

1. Realize that an accident is occuring.
2. Try to determine the outcome of the accident and the trajectory of the karts involved.
3. Try to determine if there will be a safe hole to drive through.
4. Try to slow down enough so that you can avoid the accident and still get through.
5. Calculate that you simply cannot slow down enough and contact is inevitable.
6. Predict the path that the kart in front of you will take.
6. Choose a line that you feel is safe and will avoid contact.
7. Slow down so you retain as much control as possible when going off.
8. Drive off and keep the wheels straight, get off the brakes and just roll it through the grass.

I don't know about you guys, but I used every last 1/100ths of a second to do those things. I'm glad I even had that amount of time. If I had been on #63's ass like Martin was 2 weeks ago, my guess is that the crash would have been much worse.

[MPIGP - Phillip Gordon]

Am I missing something here? If you think you're going off at Rock Island, do you brake? Or do you hit the brakes?

Rick

You and I have had several lengthy conversations regarding accidents that I have witnessed where you are involved and even one that you and I were invovled in and I've come to the conclusion that there is no shedding light on a situation where you are concerned, so my comments are more geared towards the other readers of this forum. However, I believe you'll make a great racer because of your passion and dedication so I hope for your sake someday the light bulb will go on and you'll see things from a different angle. It will make you a safer racer.

In reference to your comment above, Rock Island is a completely different animal. That's comparing apples and oranges. There is no run off room so evasive actions are much more limited there than at a track like Norway.

Something else that I should've added to my earlier post is, is it possible Martin could've avoided climbing over your rear wheel? The first instinct is to try to avoid contact, and that should be the priority, but if he was too close, could it be he hit your rear wheel trying to go around you? Would it have been better to hit you flush in the rear bumper? Bottom line is, each situation is different and it takes lots of racing experience to make the right call and even then, if lady luck is not on your side, you could still end up in the hospital.

Knowing your limitations is key. If you don't feel comfortable racing at 90mph, it might be better to race at 60mph and work your way up.

Just my 2 cents. I honestly hope I don't offend anyone with these comments.

[Rick]

You and I have had several lengthy conversations regarding accidents that I have witnessed where you are involved and even one that you and I were invovled in and I've come to the conclusion that there is no shedding light on a situation where you are concerned, so my comments are more geared towards the other readers of this forum. However, I believe you'll make a great racer because of your passion and dedication so I hope for your sake someday the light bulb will go on and you'll see things from a different angle. It will make you a safer racer. Phil, you sound as though you've never made contact or had incidents before. How many incidents were you involved in last year in the Master Pro Series? Some guys told me they left because of aggressive driving and lack of enforcement of the rules by the race director who also happened to be a driver involved in those incidents. At least one of those guys is a member on this board. I can't believe you are talking about this as if I initiated this whole incident. How many incidents have I been in in the Masters Pro Series? I've raced about 10 with you and I've been involved in only 1 incident (in the MPS) and that was with you at Norway before the start/finish. In those same 10 races, you've been involved in 5 incidents. The second time I've been involved was in TAG when #63 tried the very same pass on me and failed and spun and Martin crashed into him. The only way I could have avoided that was to have eyes in the back of my head since he hit be from behind. The third was the one we are discussing now. I avoided a collision that caused by someone else's aggressive driving. That is not the same as being an aggressive driver. In fact, an aggressive move is the cause of this incident in my opinion. If that low percentage move was not attempted, we wouldn't even be discussing this right now.

[Mark Hirt]

Since you were already thinking the drivers in front of you were going to wreck, plan for it at every corner it should not be a surprise.
When the spin starts aim at the spinning Kart, it will spin out of your way.
Find your hole and look at it. DO NOT look at the spinning Kart. Your hands will steer to where your eye are looking.Not being there to see it and not being involved this is what I would do if the situation was presented to me.


Brake just enough to go INSIDE the 63 Kart (see 2 above) .
Once again aim for the inside of #63, crank the wheel left and spin the Kart (the one you are driving).

[Rick]

That was my first thought too. Unfortunately #10 was there in a slide already. And I wasn't sure if #63 was going left or right. It could have been either way at that point; Although it did look as if it were going left. But who knows at that point? A mistake on top of the bridge would have been much more dangerous. I chose to go in the grass.

[Martin Lenick]

Hey all,

I thank you all for your concern.

Please don't take this too far with pointing blame. I don't know all the facts (I think someone involved in a wreck rarely knows them all) but I do know this much:

I believed "the big one" was coming.
I said to myself I should be leaving a bigger gap to take advantage of it when it happened.

A couple weeks ago, in the previous incident, I wish that I had done what Rick did this time.

What Rick did had no influence on what I did.

The only thing that separates this incident from any other is an injury (and from what I hear, some spectacular aerial effects) that should be considered by all to be a "freak" occurance. The level of injury has nothing to do with the magnitude of this mistakes made on the track. Tiny little bumbs have brought serious results; gnarly-looking impacts have left all walking away "happy".

Up until things went bad, I think I recall (a little confused) that I had a chance of making through the grass to the access-road, back to the track and taking the checkered.

I don't fault #63; in some ways his contribution makes my own fault even more stinging.

I don't fault #10, even though I don't respect his methods.

There's no reason anyone should fault #88.

In fact, if there's rear damage to #88, blame it on me. Just don't try to collect. :)

[MPIGP - Phillip Gordon]

Phil, you sound as though you've never made contact or had incidents before. How many incidents were you involved in last year in the Master Pro Series? Some guys told me they left because of aggressive driving and lack of enforcement of the rules by the race director who also happened to be a driver involved in those incidents. At least one of those guys is a member on this board. I can't believe you are talking this as if I initiated this whole incident. How many incidents have I been in in the Masters Pro Series? I've raced about 10 with you and I've been involved in only 1 incident (in the MPS) and that was with you at Norway before the start/finish. In those same 10 races, you've been involved in 5 incidents. The second time I've been involved was in TAG when #63 tried the very same pass on me and failed and spun and Martin crashed into him. The only way I could have avoided that was to have eyes in the back of my head since he hit be from behind. The third was the one we are discussing now. I avoided a collision that caused by someone else's aggressive driving. That is not the same as being an aggressive driver. In fact, an aggressive move is the cause of this incident in my opinion. If that low percentage move was not attempted, we wouldn't even be discussing this right now.

Rick

I was hoping you wouldn't have turned this into something personal and I wish you wouldn't air things on a discussion board when you don't have all the facts. Yes I have made contact on occasions and I have also admitted when I was at fault. What you don't know is there were drivers in the MPS who preferred to race to keep others behind them rather than race to stay in front. If I am being blocked, yes I will make aggressive moves to try and pass but even then I will try to make it clean. However, I don't have control over someone turning into me or rear ending me because they think my pass was too aggressive. Like I said I only made my comments to show another view. If you think the driver of kart #63 is totally at fault I can't change your mind.

[peterjank]

Hi Martin,

Good to see you back on line. From what I heard, I just missed seeing you at CIR on Sunday.

[Rick]

Rick

I was hoping you wouldn't have turned this into something personal and I wish you wouldn't air things on a discussion board when you don't have all the facts.

I'm not making it personal. I'm just giving you my point of view and shedding a little light on the topic. You made remarks commenting on my seemingly extensive history of contact. I chose to compare my history to yours.

Yes I have made contact on occasions and I have also admitted when I was at fault. What you don't know is there were drivers in the MPS who preferred to race to keep others behind them rather than race to stay in front. If I am being blocked, yes I will make aggressive moves to try and pass but even then I will try to make it clean.That's my whole point. The driver makes that decision to be more aggressive and take more risks. The driver makes the moves. And if something goes wrong who's fault is it? In my opinion, it's the driver making the decision and the move that initiates contact and causing the incident. I'm not saying the blocker is not in the wrong; Someone who is blocking is just guilty of blocking. However, they are not at fault for causing an incident if someone behind them chooses to initiate contact which results in a wreck (UNLESS they turn into another kart). Someone who's guilty of making bad moves resulting in contact is guilty of exactly that. They are two different wrongs. Two wrongs don't make a right. The two wrongs should be handled separately; Otherwise it becomes ok for any driver to make dangerous moves or initiate contact whenever HE feels that the driver in front is blocking. Someone who does not have a vested interest in the outcome of the race should be making those calls. It definitely should not be someone who is participating in the race and under the stress of competition.

I actually started in 2nd in that race and I tried to pass cleanly every where. #10 was blocking and pulling to the inside on all the long straights. I could have gotten more aggressive but that would be more risky. The track staff should be responsible for determining who is blocking and when to penalize someone for it. If we leave it to the drivers to make those decisions, the number of incidents, accidents and injuries is very likely to go up.

However, I don't have control over someone turning into me or rear ending me because they think my pass was too aggressive.And do you think I had any control over what #36 did? No, I did not. He made the decision that resulted in contact which in turn obstructed the track and prevent me from continuing forward in a safe manner. That ultimately caused both Martin and I to have no where to go.

Like I said I only made my comments to show another view. If you think the driver of kart #63 is totally at fault I can't change your mind.I'm just giving my point of view as well. That's my 2 cents (actually, maybe it's like $2.50 now). :)

Here's something to think about: What if #10 was not blocking? What if he was just driving his normal line? 2 weeks ago, I was driving my normal line and I was in #10's position with #36 behind me. Guess what happened. The same thing. Was that caused by me because I was blocking (and no I was not blocking)? Or was it caused by #36 trying to make a move that had no chance of succeeding?

[CIR-Reed]

The thing that amazes me the most here is that what could potentially have been an interesting conversation diluted in to accusations and people ripping on each other. People could have kept ther ego's in their pocket and discussed the facts. The reality is that stuff happens in racing. I think everybody needs to get over that and either chose to race or not to race. If you chose to race you are accepting that things will happen or can happen and it is what it is. If you never want to risk being injured racing, don't race. I prefer to not live my life in a safety bubble so I chose to take risks when racing, mountain biking, or driving to work. Now that I got that out of the way here are the facts as I see them:

1. The leader was blocking.
2. The driver in second place attempted a low percentage pass and it didn't work out. This happens all the time, get over it.
3. Rick made a choice to go right to avoid the incident and brake to reduce his personal risk as he went off the track. He is allowed to do that and it was probably a good decision. He could have taken a higher risk action and tried to maintain speed through the grass and re-enter later to continue.
4. Martin chose to try and maintain speed as he left the track. His statement was that he thought maybe he could make it to the pit road or something like that? (again I don't know the layout). Then he thought he may be able to re-enter and take the checker. He then realized that contact with Rick was inevitable just before the contact occured. The contact resulted in the incident that injured Marty.

I believe Martin is most upset that he cannot race for awhile. This is a great attitude. Don't be upset with the people. You all entered a high risk game with each other and it didn't work out for everybody on that particular day. There isn't any need to blame anybody or air dirty laundry or accuse people of being bad drivers. Race or don't race. I am going to race.

[MPIGP - Phillip Gordon]

The thing that amazes me the most here is that what could potentially have been an interesting conversation diluted in to accusations and people ripping on each other. People could have kept ther ego's in their pocket and discussed the facts. The reality is that stuff happens in racing. I think everybody needs to get over that and either chose to race or not to race. If you chose to race you are accepting that things will happen or can happen and it is what it is. If you never want to risk being injured racing, don't race. I prefer to not live my life in a safety bubble so I chose to take risks when racing, mountain biking, or driving to work. Now that I got that out of the way here are the facts as I see them:

1. The leader was blocking.
2. The driver in second place attempted a low percentage pass and it didn't work out. This happens all the time, get over it.
3. Rick made a choice to go right to avoid the incident and brake to reduce his personal risk as he went off the track. He is allowed to do that and it was probably a good decision. He could have taken a higher risk action and tried to maintain speed through the grass and re-enter later to continue.
4. Martin chose to try and maintain speed as he left the track. His statement was that he thought maybe he could make it to the pit road or something like that? (again I don't know the layout). Then he thought he may be able to re-enter and take the checker. He then realized that contact with Rick was inevitable just before the contact occured. The contact resulted in the incident that injured Marty.

I believe Martin is most upset that he cannot race for awhile. This is a great attitude. Don't be upset with the people. You all entered a high risk game with each other and it didn't work out for everybody on that particular day. There isn't any need to blame anybody or air dirty laundry or accuse people of being bad drivers. Race or don't race. I am going to race.

:iagree: Very well said.

Rick I apologize if my comments sounded like accusations. That was not my intention. As you rightly pointed out, I am probably involved in more incidents than you because I have a very aggressive driving style and I hate to get beat by slower drivers that block. I respect this sport and I would never deliberately do anything to endanger another racer. As Reed pointed out, you did what you thought was the best move given your circumstances, I can't wrong you for that. Safe racing.

[Rick]

Just looked at the crash data from Martin's ebox last night. The highest Gs recorded was just over 50G. Mark said that human body can sustain 75G.
Apparently the collar bone and some vertebrae can only sustain about 49G.

[JET Karting - Andy Finke]

Rick-

The data off te e-box only has a g meter for lateral. You would need a longitudinal (inline) g meter to get the 'true' picture of what he sustained. Inline g's can also be figured out with the speed channel, (basically just rate of change in the speed), but I don't think that's a trustworthy way when the kart was off the ground.

Regardless, it could have been higher than 50 g's that he actually saw. That's big.

Andy

[Rick]

Rick-

The data off te e-box only has a g meter for lateral. You would need a longitudinal (inline) g meter to get the 'true' picture of what he sustained. Inline g's can also be figured out with the speed channel, (basically just rate of change in the speed), but I don't think that's a trustworthy way when the kart was off the ground.

Regardless, it could have been higher than 50 g's that he actually saw. That's big.

Andy

With no roll cage....

[Martin Lenick]

I can now decisively attribute blame to the incident:

Brain - Right Foot back off, Left foot be ready.
Right Foot - Left Foot if you touch that peddle I'll kick you in the achilles.
Left Foot - I ain't touch nothin', Right Foot. You back off and you're toe-st.
Brain - Hey, feet!! What the heck??? Aren't you listening to me???
Left Foot & Right Foot in unison - Shut up, Grey Matter Tyrant!!!

BANG

Left Foot - Weeeeeeee
Right Foot - go go go go go go go go go go go go go go
Brain - Ahhhhh f&#(Q...
Left Foot - Ouch
Right Foot - go go go go go go go go go go go go go go
Brain - ahhhhggghhhggghhggg

THUD

Left Foot - nothing left for me to do. I'm going to sleep.
Right Foot - go go go go go go go
Brain - ................................... pretty, pretty blue sky........

VERDICT: Left Foot guilty; brain incompetent.

[MPIGP - Phillip Gordon]

I can now decisively attribute blame to the incident:

Brain - Right Foot back off, Left foot be ready.
Right Foot - Left Foot if you touch that peddle I'll kick you in the achilles.
Left Foot - I ain't touch nothin', Right Foot. You back off and you're toe-st.
Brain - Hey, feet!! What the heck??? Aren't you listening to me???
Left Foot & Right Foot in unison - Shut up, Grey Matter Tyrant!!!

BANG

Left Foot - Weeeeeeee
Right Foot - go go go go go go go go go go go go go go
Brain - Ahhhhh f&#(Q...
Left Foot - Ouch
Right Foot - go go go go go go go go go go go go go go
Brain - ahhhhggghhhggghhggg

THUD

Left Foot - nothing left for me to do. I'm going to sleep.
Right Foot - go go go go go go go
Brain - ................................... pretty, pretty blue sky........

VERDICT: Left Foot guilty; brain incompetent.

OK Martin....I think maybe you need to cut back just a little bit on the medication.....10 to 15cc less may do it :evil_lol:

[Rick]

I can now decisively attribute blame to the incident:

Brain - Right Foot back off, Left foot be ready.
Right Foot - Left Foot if you touch that peddle I'll kick you in the achilles.
Left Foot - I ain't touch nothin', Right Foot. You back off and you're toe-st.
Brain - Hey, feet!! What the heck??? Aren't you listening to me???
Left Foot & Right Foot in unison - Shut up, Grey Matter Tyrant!!!

BANG

Left Foot - Weeeeeeee
Right Foot - go go go go go go go go go go go go go go
Brain - Ahhhhh f&#(Q...
Left Foot - Ouch
Right Foot - go go go go go go go go go go go go go go
Brain - ahhhhggghhhggghhggg

THUD

Left Foot - nothing left for me to do. I'm going to sleep.
Right Foot - go go go go go go go
Brain - ................................... pretty, pretty blue sky........

VERDICT: Left Foot guilty; brain incompetent.

Unless you were born afflicted with anorchidism, there were two more culprits who helped cheer the right foot onwards by droning out the brain's messages.

[Rick]

An average F1 car can decelerate from 100-0 km/h (62-0 mph) in about 17 metres (55 feet)

I'm assuming that distance is on a flat asphalt surface and not a descending grass hill. :)

I measured the distance from the edge of the track to the wire fence with a tape measure in the turn that Martin's big crash happened in. The total distance is 55ft. The first 35 feet of that is a downhill descent over grass. The last 20ft before the wire fence is the pit access road.

The entry speed into that turn is about 50-60mph. If you're braking, you're probably still going 40-45 mph at turn in. Martin is extremely lucky he did not hit the fence. Even though he was in the air, he still had enough energy that he would have hit the fence or cleared it.

Does anyone still believe that you can go off at full speed in that corner?:dunno:

[MPIGP - Phillip Gordon]

I'm assuming that distance is on a flat asphalt surface and not a descending grass hill. :)

I measured the distance from the edge of the track to the wire fence with a tape measure in the turn that Martin's big crash happened in. The total distance is 55ft. The first 35 feet of that is a downhill descent over grass. The last 20ft before the wire fence is the pit access road.

The entry speed into that turn is about 50-60mph. If you're braking, you're probably still going 40-45 mph at turn in. Martin is extremely lucky he did not hit the fence. Even though he was air born, he still had enough energy that he would have hit the fence or cleared it.

Does anyone still believe that you can go off at full speed in that corner?:dunno:

Rick

I don't have a speed sensor so I'm not sure of the actual speed but that's a 4th gear turn in the shifter and I've gone off there once before. I went down the descent picked up the access road and tried to re-join the race at pit out but because my nose cone was bent under the chassis I had to stop to fix it. So I guess in answer to your question, it is possible to go off full speed in a TAG and not hit the fence since I'm pretty sure the shifter would get up to at least the same speed or higher than a TAG kart.

[rct25]

It is possible!

Roberto

[Rick]

Maybe you could make it if you had a trajectory that was already pointed towards the pit access road and there were no obstacles (like barrier or another kart sliding backwards in your path). Remember that you are most likely traveling at a speed that is at the very limit for making a turn like that on asphalt and not grass. But if you were to miss your mark, even by 2 feet, you would probably sustain some really bad injuries.

At a trajectory that forces you to go off pointed straight towards the fence, I seriously doubt anyone could make that turn. I know karts are the closest thing you can get to a an F1 car, but it's still no F1 car (or WRC car for that matter) Even an F1 car would have a really hard time pulling something like that off.

Even thought I was braking prior to exiting the track, I still stopped at the very edge of the pit access road. If I had been going 5mph faster, I would definitely kept on going and potentially hit the fence.

[Martin Lenick]

If I had been going 5mph faster, I would definitely kept on going and potentially hit the fence.
I hit the sky!:)

[Rick]

I hit they sky!

You hit the sky pretty hard Martin!

Actually, now that I think about it. Out of the 3 karts that went off, I was the only one that ended up on the pit access road and somewhat lined up to continue with the race via the pit access road. #63 was pointed backwards on the grass. Martin was definitely not able to continue. All I had to do was drive off. My kart had almost no damage. I would have probably been on the podium.