View Full Version : Article on new KF engines
It seems that the Rotax Rave Valve is such a good idea that many manufacturers are using it on their KF engines.
Click here to read the article. (http://chicagoracers.com/files/KFEngineArticle.pdf)
rct25
11-07-2007, 12:46 PM
Rick,
Great article!
Thank you,
Roberto
Rick,
Great article!
Thank you,
Roberto
Enjoy!
It looks like TAG type engines are taking over the CIK FIA classes. The KF1, KF2, KF3 and KF4 engines are all based on the same engine. They just adjust rev limiters, carb adjustments and exhaust ports. It's interesting that the Windfire KF2 engine makes 38 HP! That's as much as a 250cc 4 stroke TAG engine! I wonder what a full blown KF1 engine would make (40+ hp?).
rct25
11-07-2007, 03:25 PM
They DID take over; in the CIK FIA Championships in Europe that is the type of engines they are running starting 2007
The direct drive 100cc engines (ICA,JICA) are no longer CIK FIA classes.
The Florida Winter Tour is going to be the first series to run these classes in the U.S.A.
Roberto
They DID take over; in the CIK FIA Championships in Europe that is the type of engines they are running starting 2007
The direct drive 100cc engines (ICA,JICA) are no longer CIK FIA classes.
The Florida Winter Tour is going to be the first series to run these classes in the U.S.A.
Roberto
:confused: I thought TAG was dead...
JET Karting - Andy Finke
11-08-2007, 10:39 AM
TAG isn't dead by any means, but I wouldn't say that the KF engines are going to replace it either. They hopefully will help revive/keep strong the Stars ICA type racing. That class is rediculous in expense.
TAG will be around for quite a while because most drivers don't want to go faster than that. The line between "I've got it" and "It's got me" is an important one to watch, and even TAG takes some serious respect to stay on top of. That is another reason the Shifter classes have been shrinking and not growing.
At the end of the day, if you don't feel in control, you're less likely to dream about it tommorrow. That sucks.
Andy
I wasn't being serious Andy. I was referring to Martin's comment:
http://www.chicagoracers.com/forum/showthread.php?p=17320#post17320
MPIGP - Phillip Gordon
11-08-2007, 08:25 PM
TAG will be around for quite a while because most drivers don't want to go faster than that. The line between "I've got it" and "It's got me" is an important one to watch, and even TAG takes some serious respect to stay on top of. That is another reason the Shifter classes have been shrinking and not growing.
At the end of the day, if you don't feel in control, you're less likely to dream about it tommorrow. That sucks.
Andy
Interesting concept.....so TAG drivers are afraid of the extra speed of a shifter, what? 5? 10mph more? but they don't have any problems trying to stop 380 to 400lbs with rear brakes only on hard tires? Shifter classes may be shrinking at CHMS but they are growing in other areas.
Martin Lenick
11-08-2007, 10:19 PM
Interesting concept.....so TAG drivers are afraid of the extra speed of a shifter, what? 5? 10mph more? but they don't have any problems trying to stop 380 to 400lbs with rear brakes only on hard tires? Shifter classes may be shrinking at CHMS but they are growing in other areas.What???? You make it sound like TaG is as challenging, or more, than shifter. Given their faster speed and superior braking, how much shorter is a shifter's braking zone than a TaG's? That's right. Now that you understand that, let's look at the acceptable margin of error. Starting to catch on?
The TaG series on sprint tracks would be more challenging (and more dangerous) with the addition of front brakes.
TaG drivers aren't afraid of shifters, just some of the idiots in them.
:jerry: Welcome to the Martin and Phil show. :takecover:
We'll be right back after Phil responds...
Here are my 2 cents:
Power and gears are fun; But they aren't everything. They don't make or break a class. DD2's have way more power and way more top speed than TAG karts, yet they struggle to post lap times representative of those advantages (even with drivers who compete at the national level).
Don't get me wrong. I think shifters are awesome. But there's just no competition around here. I've raced at Shawano, Elkhart Lake, and CHMS. I've almost never seen a shifter class that had more than 3 karts (one of which was usually Phil).
Now, I think you can run the Great Lakes SKUSA series and you'll find more competition there. But that's a whole different level. I don't know if that would be safe to do in your rookie season.
You might also want to consider 4 cycle TAG. Those engines have TONS of torque and power. They post times similar to shifters. They usually have more entries (4 or 5) in a race than shifters. The only problem is that they only race 6 times a year. The racing is also a little rough.
DD2 looked promising and that's why I bought one first. It has more power, 2 gears and a sealed engine. Sadly, the class hasn't really materialized yet. BTW, do you want to buy a DD2? :) I'm selling mine.
Again, it depends on what you want out of it. If you want to do wheel to wheel racing, then find a class that has a consistently high number of entries. If you just want to have the fastest machine, get a shifter.
MPIGP - Phillip Gordon
11-08-2007, 11:44 PM
What???? You make it sound like TaG is as challenging, or more, than shifter. Given their faster speed and superior braking, how much shorter is a shifter's braking zone than a TaG's? That's right. Now that you understand that, let's look at the acceptable margin of error. Starting to catch on?
The TaG series on sprint tracks would be more challenging (and more dangerous) with the addition of front brakes.
TaG drivers aren't afraid of shifters, just some of the idiots in them.
Are you serious? or is it the scotch talking? First of all I wasn't trying to imply anything. What Andy said didn't make any sense to me, kinda like your response. Maybe that's the reason you get along with him and I don't. You talk the same language. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out a kart with 4 wheel braking and softer tires will have a much shorter stopping distance than a kart equipped with rear brakes only and harder tires.
Also, I never said or implied TAG drivers were afraid of shifters, your good buddy did.
:jerry:And we're back. Back you to you Martin.
rct25
11-09-2007, 06:33 PM
Lets not forget that almost all the new engines for karting are TaG (Touch and Go); KF engines, 4 cycle engines, shifter engines, Rotax engines, DD2 engines,even the old school Yamaha KT 100 has a version of "TaG"....yes the KT100 in a TaG version
http://www.yamaha-motor.com.au/motor/index.htm?model_kart_cat.asp?modelcatid=14
http://www.yamaha-motor.com.au/motor/images/models/277/277_01_1l.jpg
So lets make sure we do not confuse the new people trying to get into karting. TaG is a concept and it is here to stay. Eventually everybody is going to race a "TaG engine".
just my 2 cents.
Roberto
Roberto, you're right again! WTF is going on? TAG is a concept. It just means that you don't need an external starter. Thank god, my big orange kart is Touch And Go. Could you imagine carrying around a starter for that thing?!
However, it can be confusing because the majority of the "TAG" engines that manufacturers are selling now are basically made for the TAG USA/International rules. I think only the DD2 and the TAG shifter by TM is made for a class outside of the TAG USA/International rules. When people refer to TAG in karting, they are usually referring to the class and not the concept.
Are you serious? or is it the scotch talking? First of all I wasn't trying to imply anything. What Andy said didn't make any sense to me, kinda like your response. Maybe that's the reason you get along with him and I don't. You talk the same language. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out a kart with 4 wheel braking and softer tires will have a much shorter stopping distance than a kart equipped with rear brakes only and harder tires.
Also, I never said or implied TAG drivers were afraid of shifters, your good buddy did.
On the topic of Single Speed vs Shifters: Why is that the top form of karting in the US seems to be shifters and in Europe it's Formula A (single speed)?
MPIGP - Phillip Gordon
11-09-2007, 07:54 PM
On the topic of Single Speed vs Shifters: Why is that the top form of karting in the US seems to be shifters and in Europe it's Formula A (single speed)?
I can only speculate on this because I've never raced in Europe but I suspect it's because their single speed classes at the top level are faster. The karts are lighter causing the cornering speeds to be much higher and those motors actually put out more hp than the ICC motors.
On a side note, many people in the US including myself, don't race shifters because they are faster, but rather because we love to shift gears. It's also the only way I can afford to drive a race 'car' with a sequential gearbox.
Thanks to you and Roberto for pointing out the difference between the concept of TAG, touch and go and the class 'TAG USA'. I love the concept, it's the 'TAG USA' program I shy away from. Touch and go may or may not be the future for karting but I am building a 'TAG' shifter for myself because I like the convenience of the electric starter and the excitement of shifting six gears.
As for the braking, when I installed a big brake kit on my E30 race car, I went from turning 1:23's at BFR to 1:21's with no other changes on the car. That made a believer out of me that stopping power is huge on a race track in addition to the fact that I felt so much more relaxed driving deeper into the turns. I wouldn't say I would never race a rear brake only kart again, but the comfort level wouldn't be anywhere near what it is in a shifter with 4 wheel brakes. For me, brakes are more important than HP because I am sure you've noticed by now Rick, I do most of my passing under braking :evil_lol:
MPIGP - Phillip Gordon
11-09-2007, 07:55 PM
Lets not forget that almost all the new engines for karting are TaG (Touch and Go); KF engines, 4 cycle engines, shifter engines, Rotax engines, DD2 engines,even the old school Yamaha KT 100 has a version of "TaG"....yes the KT100 in a TaG version
http://www.yamaha-motor.com.au/motor/index.htm?model_kart_cat.asp?modelcatid=14
http://www.yamaha-motor.com.au/motor/images/models/277/277_01_1l.jpg
So lets make sure we do not confuse the new people trying to get into karting. TaG is a concept and it is here to stay. Eventually everybody is going to race a "TaG engine".
just my 2 cents.
Roberto
Thanks for pointing that out.
Martin Lenick
11-09-2007, 08:32 PM
Are you serious? or is it the scotch talking? First of all I wasn't trying to imply anything. What Andy said didn't make any sense to me, kinda like your response. Maybe that's the reason you get along with him and I don't. You talk the same language. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out a kart with 4 wheel braking and softer tires will have a much shorter stopping distance than a kart equipped with rear brakes only and harder tires.
Also, I never said or implied TAG drivers were afraid of shifters, your good buddy did.
A little too much Red Stripe, bro? I think you "said or implied"
Interesting concept.....so TAG drivers are afraid of the extra speed of a shifter, what? 5? 10mph more?
'nuff said.
Martin Lenick
11-09-2007, 09:11 PM
What Andy said didn't make any sense to me, kinda like your response. Maybe that's the reason you get along with him and I don't.Not getting along with me is something I fully understand and am quite accustomed to. But Andy???!!! I think that says way more about you than it does about Andy. Based on your comment, and Andy's personality, I'd guess that Mother Teresa would be a bit too disagreeable for you.:hum:
MPIGP - Phillip Gordon
11-09-2007, 11:26 PM
Not getting along with me is something I fully understand and am quite accustomed to. But Andy???!!! I think that says way more about you than it does about Andy. Based on your comment, and Andy's personality, I'd guess that Mother Teresa would be a bit too disagreeable for you.:hum:
There you go again....I wasn't trying to say anything about Andy. There is an old saying, birds of a feather flock together. I was simply making an observation that I am definitely not of the same feather that you guys are. Nothing wrong with that. For instance, I like fast karts with great stopping power and you guys like 'not as fast' karts with less stopping power :evil_lol:
...I like fast karts with great stopping power and you guys like 'not as fast' karts with less stopping power :evil_lol:
I love anything fast with tons of stopping power. I'd be racing F1 if I could afford it. Hell.. I'd be racing Formula Mazda or SRF if I could convince Vicki that it was a good thing to spend money on it. I'd love to race Shifters or DD2 but there is simply no competition in the area where I don't have to spend twice as much as TAG to race. TAG is the fastest thing I can race where there's a large field of competent competitors racing almost every weekend.
Also, I can take a TAG and go almost anywhere in the country and race it at almost any track. Supernats, Rock Island, and Robopong all have TAG (TAG USA) classes.
If there was a class of karts with Hayabusa engines that was regularly fielding a grid of 6+ karts every week within reasonable distance and costs, I'd be all over it like orange caviar on California Maki rolls.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/72/171038244_3865f7a803.jpg
So when are you guys getting those 50hp Aixro rotary engine karts? I've learned my lesson and I'm not going to buy one first. I'll wait till 6-8 of you guys buy one first this time.
MPIGP - Phillip Gordon
11-10-2007, 11:25 AM
I love anything fast with tons of stopping power. I'd be racing F1 if I could afford it.
So when are you guys getting those 50hp Aixro rotary engine karts? I've learned my lesson and I'm not going to buy one first. I'll wait till 6-8 of you guys buy one first this time.
Rick I wasn't talking about you personally...my deduction was made from Andy's post and his reason why the TAG class is growing and the shifter class is 'shrinking'. Your passion for karting and racing in general sets you apart from most.
As for the Aixro, I'll buy one when they attach a six speed sequential gearbox to it.
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